Wallin: Tonight on the programme, a conversation with Bill Phipps. He is the controversial new moderator of the United Church of Canada. [He] managed to put himself in the headlines with some rather outspoken comments, when he was asked questions like, "Is Jesus God," to which he answered, 'no', and he also said heaven and hell probably don't exist as places. Tonight, a conversation about religion, about spirituality, about defining religious icons and about his future as Moderator.

Wallin: Who would have throught that being the moderator of the United Church of Canada wouild become such a controversial job, with people calling you 'a jerk', a 'danger to the religion', and perhaps even calling into question your own Christian values? Well, that's what happened to Bill Phipps when he took over the job. [To Phipps] Are you surprised too?

Phipps: Well I was surprised, because I had thought that anything I had been saying is within the mainstream of [the] 'reformed' theology in our church. It's something I've grown up with my family and in every church community I've ever been in. So I was kind of surprised at the vehemence of the reaction of some people, but also the support of many others who apparently hadn't heard some of this stuff before; and its been around for over a hundred years, some of the thoughts.

Wallin: I guess it is interesting either way you cut it, in the sense that we are sitting here talking about it at dinner tables all across the country; that people are talking about religion, and whether Jesus is God, and whether there's a heaven and hell, and in a sense, you've helped provoke that.

Phipps: Well, this is what amazes me, and I try to say to people are talking about Jesus, about religion, about spiritual journeys, in places where they never normally do. The public media had it somewhere, every day for nine weeks. Now why is that, and you should see that I have stacks [of responses].

Wallin: They like black hats and white hats, that's why.

Phipps: Well, that's part of it, but, usually religion is not a big deal to people, and you're embarrassed to talk about God in certain places. Well, not anymore. I've got a stack, literally this high [puts hand near his face] of stories from Whitehorse to St. John's, of people who say, "You know, we haven't talked about religion in our family for thirty years, we sat around a pt of tea and talked for two and a half hours the other night. I got a call from a woman a single part who says, 'finally, there is something I can really believe in, and we're going to the local United Church next Sunday. I mean these are just wonderful stories.

Wallin: What do you say to all those people sitting out there tonight who are questioning your commitment to Christianity and therefore, your suitability for this job. That if in fact, you don't believe that Jesus was God and that there is a heaven and a hell, that maybe you should find other work.

Phipps: Well I say, forget about me - who is Jesus to you? How do you understand God? How do you understand the role of religion in a very bewildering and conflicting world? Don't worry about me... What do you think about...

Wallin: But they have to worry about you, you are the front man, the representative of the Church, you are now the representative of what they believe in and even pay dues to.

Phipps: Well I think they have a right and obviously we do have a huge debate going on in our Church. But I think the vast majority of people are thankful for raising certain issues, and saying here it is, we've got vast studies in our church, use them, come together. And that's mainly what's happening. What I've learned obviously is that every time your are in that kind of public position, you are going to get a whole range of people who are going to react to you. But the main thing I am saying is it doesn't matter as much about what I think about Jesus, it matters what you think about; and also, what you think about interfaith relations, because I said quite a bit about that too. How are we relating as Christian women and men to people of other faith traditions? Especially in a world that is hungry...

Wallin: If yours is the only right answer?

Phipps: Well, yeah, and there's no question in my mind that there is a spiritual hunger in society, any bookstore you go to has a thousand books on spiritual journies, you can pay a thousand bucks to go on a weekend with a spiritual guru..

Wallin: You mean to get ready for the millenium.

Phipps: The whole thing, you know, There's a spiritual hunger, there's no question about it and probably what we did was to tap into some of that. I think that people collectively are missing the moral centre of public decision making. I think people are looking out at the world and saying 'wait a minute,' the kind of society that we built up, our parents and grandparents, coming from Saskatchewan, you know the role people played, in trying to create a more compassionate society. Over a hundred years we put together this funny fabric called Canada, and I think people are looking out and saying 'wait a minute.' All that stuff is being dismantled. And its being dismantled on the basis of values that, we don't understand. People think that market economy is fine, but they know there are deeper moral values on which we built a compassionate society. So I think that is what is going on here.

Wallin: But aren't you contributing to that? I mean, you would have to have lived under a rock, for example, for the last 24 hours, in the world to not know that Bill Clinton is in hot water, yet again. We see all the institutions around us crumbling. Huge questions about everybody's moral compass and moral centre and if there is one, and now too, the Church in question.

Phipps: Well, sure, and it should be in question. The Church should always be on trial as it were. Jesus was on a bit of a trial of his own, and he got crucified. The Church should always be on trial for whether or not it is follow ing the Gospel of unconditional love, of justice, of including the outcast and so on. That's what we are called to be in the world, and if we're not doing that, then we should die. (he laughs at his joke).

Wallin: If you were doing a sermon on the church, you mean.

Phipps: Well, that's what we are called to be.

Wallin: If you were giving a sermon on Sunday, what would you say about Bill Clinton?

Phipps: Well, that's a tough one to get into today, because of all the stuff that's broken out and I haven't seen the scandal. But I'll say this much, if he's accused of all those things and if its true, I don't condone that kind of behaviour. But we had a President of the United States for eight years who waged an illegal war on peasants in Nicuragua, killing thousands of peasants. I was there and saw some of the result of Ronald Reagan's work, he had an illegal arms deal with Iraq, he built up the military to the biggest deficit in American history; everyone loved him. Nobody saw anything wrong with that. And here we have another President of the United States, the deficit is down, the economy is better than its been for 30 years, he wants to bring in medicare so people can actually get well ... and he's got some sexual problems. Now in the scheme of things, which person did the most for the world and which person the least? I mean, let's get it in its context and not get our shirt in a knot. That's what we do when we're scared you know, and we're fearful. That's when we pick little things there and we work away at it, when over here, the world is crumbling, or some horrendous thing over there ...

Wallin: So its complicated to deal with.

Phipps: That's right. We can't deal with that. We can deal with this little thing, so lets nail him on this, because we don't want to deal with his proposal on medicare. That raises too many questions about the market economy, insurance companies and so on.

Wallin: With a view like that, say you were to make this a sermon in your pulpit, do you understand why there would be great numbers in you general congregation, the huge flock of 700,000 plus that consider themselves members of the United Church. [Those that] would turn to you and say, "this is not a place for politics..."

Phipps: Well, read the Bible, read the Bible. The whole biblical story starts with the first wildcat strike in history. God says to Moses, 'the people are suffering under an oppressor [and] you're going to liberate them." That's a political story. One of the greatest stories that people love to read about is King David. Read the Bible - its all about political intrigue, whether David was following covenant to bring justice in the land, in treating people justly, its all political. You can't look at the Bible and without seeing that its a story that about people's understanding about all of life, which involves individual things, but mainly involves how we live together in community, which is small p-political.

One of the things I would say very clearly, and I've been saying this for years now ... The Bible says for more about economics that it does about sex. So, it we pick up that thing with Clinton, yes, if he was guilty of sexual misconduct, we've got to address that ... and its wrong, there's no question about t hat. But Jesus was far more concerned and so is the whole biblical story with our economic relationships. If you look up Torah and the laws in Leviticus ...

Wallin: Those who have and those who don't.

Phipps: In the gap between rich and poor, if you look at the final judgement, that Jesus talks about in Matthew 25, about how we feed the hungry, clothe the naked, welcome the refugeee and the stranger into our homes. You could look at that and s ay, 'well, that could have been written yesterday morning.' And it has to do with how we live together as a community, all the global community and the test is whether how well we welcome, encourage and embrace the outcast, and the marginal, and so on.

Wallin: Social action and spirituality - can they live side by side? [after commercial break] So, is he a breath of fresh air, or a heretic? Its amazing that people are asking this question still, do you think its going to dog you through the course of your time?

Phipps: Well it probably will. Actually a lot of people thought, well, Bill is noted for social justice and those sorts of things... and yet, a month into my term, we're talking about Christology and major theological issues. But you know, its interesting. I hope to be able to tie in those theological questions with my concern about the economy and social justice. I'm going to be sponsoring a Moderator's Consultation on Christ and the Moral Economy.

Wallin: Which may be more in trouble than the fiscal economy.

Phipps: Oh that's right, absolutely right. So what in that I am trying to do is to tie in our theology. What do we really say in how Jesus represents in terms of the will of God in relationship to our political and economic life together?

Wallin: Is this something like, do we practise what we preach?

Phipps: Yes. I think a lot of it has to do with that.

Wallin: Let's go over some of these areas. I'm sure it makes you crazy to have to deal with it again, but there are certain views that are long held, and firmly held by people inside the Church, and when you say that Jesus is not God, Jesus is a window on God, what do you mean?

Phipps: Well, what I've said is that there is no theological statements in any of the creeds that just says starkly that Jesus is God. And the reason for that is the Church has debated in the past 1900 years...

Wallin: I've read that in 415 AD [it's 451 AD] the powers of the Church declared that he was both human and divine, point settled, no more discussion.

Phipps: Well, that's the point you see. That's why they haven't said that Jesus was God because there has always been debate on what has been the mix of humanity and divinity in Jesus; because we can't have him just divine, because he would not identify with the human community.

And we can't have him just human because then he is not special and so on. The church has always debated this and has found various formulas to talk about it. I've said two basic things. One - is that religious questions are alwasy one of mystery, and as soon as you try and nail it down and say, that's the end of it, you lose the power, because if you lose the mystery, you lose the power in religious language.

In Jesus, I have said, that God is big, God is always mysterious, God is awesome, beyond our understanding in any religious tradition. The Christian makes a leap of faith that this God is embodied as much as can be in a human being in the body of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. That's our confession. And that to my mind ... makes Jesus unique and special, because I make that claim about him that I wouldn't make about anybody else. But he's not all of God ... God is far more ... awesome ... than could be in Jesus.

Wallin: But do you believe that he is a human being who walked the earth and engaged in the things that we read about in the Bible?

Phipps: That he did all those things?

Wallin: That he was a guy, a person.

Phipps: Well, Jesus was fully human, absolutely. That's been part of the debate. And I think people who say 'Jesus is God' are making on of the Docetic heresies, where they were emphasizing his divinity as opposed to his humanity.

Wallin: But is he the Son of God?

Phipps: Oh I would say he's the Son of God.

Wallin: But you don't believe in the Virgin Mary.

Phipps: The Virgin Birth?

Wallin: Yes.

Phipps: Well, I don't believe its neccessary to believe in the Virgin birth to be a Christian. Christian faith has to do with tryhing to follow the will of God, as we see it expressed in Jesus of Nazareth. Now the nature of his birth has nothing to do with that.

Wallin: But how do you deal with that detail? Okay, you say you believe in this guy, in what he did, I believe he's the Son of God, but whether or not he was born in a manger, or whether or not Mary was a virgin, or whether or not Jesus was resurrected or those kinds of details.

Phipps: Well, the resurrection is a little different.

Wallin: We'll get to that.

Phipps: If you look at the birth story and the Gospels, there are only two gospels out of four that carry a birth story. Mark, the earliest written, didn't have a birth story, and got right into the ministry of Jesus. We could give biblical reasons why Luke told the story a certain way, and Matthew told it a different way, and why Mark and John don't have birth stories.

In my own theology, which is right in line with Biblical scholarhip over the past 100 years, the birth stories are marvellous stories that try to explain in story form the birth of someone who later came to be known as very special, as this mixture of human and divine and so on.

Wallin: One wonders that we try to do that now with presidents and Prime Ministers, we always want to run back with, "Well gee, when you were three, would you say you were going to be ... and find that specialness...

Phipps: I think they are wonderful stories that remind us ... that Jesus was born of a young Jewish woman, she wasn't married ... well, that says something ... in occupied territory ... in a place where there was no room in the inn. That Jesus was born in a little family on the margins in a complex society that was governed by the Romans and so on. Well, that's the significance of the story, in terms of our identification of who Jesus is, and in the way in which he was born, that's why the story of the Three Kings of the glory and splendour is terrific... The story teller is a great storyteller. You have these people with crowns and gold and all that. And where did these kings find this new representation of God, this great king? They find him in a smelly little stable, a manger ... That's good storytelling; because it tells us no god(?) is found on the margins.

Wallin: So no Three Wise Men walking down the road.

Phipps: Oh probably not, but who cares? Biblical language surely, but also religous language is largely a language of metaphor, its a language of poetry. Did anyone ever say they were inspired by legal language or that it inspires the spirit?

Wallin: Oh he's a lawyer too. [she laughs]

Phipps: Oh yes, I forgot about that. But nobody thinks that legal language inspires the human spirit. Its poetry, its music, its art, right?

Wallin: You've raised some interesting points including the relationship to the margins, because thats what you say that the church should identify and connect with the margins as an institution. [commercial break]

Inspired by those that live on the margins, is that what church should be, that the United Church of Canada should be? So, said one woman who wrote you a letter in the midst of all this controversy, "you're the guy that killed the Easter Bunny."

Phipps: I guess I am.

Wallin: This was a compliment [laughing]

Phipps: This was a compliment. She was a Roman Catholic from the eastern part of our country, and within a week of this thing, she writes this email that finally somebody shot the Easter bunny. Then the email went on about honest talk without a whole lot of highfallutin language around it, a tell-it-like-it-is. It was a very encouraging note, obviously with a sense of humour.

Wallin: It does bring us to the question which we touched on ever so briefly; the whole issue of the resurrection and your views on that, which again caused concern. What's your take on this story?

Phipps: Well, my take is that I believe in the resurrection. If by resurrection you mean that Jesus was not overcome by death; and his followers were defeated, afraid, locked [?] behind closed doors, they were bewildered about what's going to happen in the future. They were afraid that he had not just died, but had been executed, and something happened to them that was more than a dream or hallucination. They were now totally transformed in being willing to risk their life. They believed that Jesus was alive and with them, guiding them and propelling them out into the world to preach the Gospel. Now to me, that's resurrection.

Wallin: Because his spirit lives.

Phipps: Well, however it is, his Spirit is alive and well with them, and it has been with Christians from generation to generation to today. One way of putting it is that the proof of the resurrection is in the community that formed after a totally grotesque and horrible death of an itenerant preacher. I mean, the evidence of the resurrection if you want, is in a community that became committed and alive and continues to this day.

Wallin: So scientific fact aside, did the heart start beating three days later when he emeged ... you just don't buy into that.

Phipps: Well, I don't know. As I say to some people, if we had a video camera, and we followed all the stories that appeared, and the different kinds of proofs in the letters of John and the Gospel about the resurrection, what would they reveal? Because it there's contradictory stories. Like again, it comes back to the mystery.

The resurrection is critical in Christian theology, but its critical in part because it is mysterious. It is something that we don't understand. One of the problems of the Western world is that we've got to understand about everything. We've got to put it there and say, 'that's it, there's no other truth beyond here, there's nothing more to discover?' Well as soon as you do that with religious ideas and belief, you've lost it.

Wallin: But I don't know how you reconcile that inside yourself. You are a lawyer, you worked with the poor, and your are a social activist. You marched with Martin Luther King, you worked with the urban poor kids in Sick Children's hospitals in Central and South America, its horrifying. How do you look at all that and say there is a great and good God, a power larger than mine, who looks at this, and allows it to happen.

Phipps: God doesn't allow it to happen. Period, full stop. As you know, two of my stepchildren have died, one aged 14, and one aged 20. I've been at the bedside of people of all ages, whether they're one month old, or a hundred years old, who have died. And people who would come up and say, and this is where I get really angry, "Well, God must want something for [?] that child." I feel like punching them in the face. Or that its "God's will that this happened." I don't understand it, its NOT God's will."

Wallin: [gently] What is it then?

Phipps: Its some things that happen in life. Michael was twenty years old, he suffered from schizophrenia, and as a result of that, he died. And thank God, there are people becoming a little more aware of mental illness, and I see the ads for schizophrenia on the sides of buses [makes a grand gesture], and you know, I'm glad the society is learning something. It was a horrible thing. But my belief is not that God was off somewhere, allowing Michael to die. That's grotesque. That's a monster God that I'll have no part of. God was at the bedside, with my wife and myself and a friend who sung to Michael in Cree as he was dying. That's where God is. And some of the aftermath of that ... Carolyn's aunt is a quilter, and she said, we can do something good out of this. So we asked for ties from celebrities, and we got ties from Mike Harris, Ralph Klein, Pierre Burton and a whole lot of people, who we wrote, and said, "Could you send us a tie?"

And she made a quilt that she raffled off in her community of Vandorff, just east of Aurora here, and they raised $12,000. for the schizophrenia society. But in terms of the kind of God we have, God is on the margins with people as they're [suffering]. That's what Jesus represents, that's what the cross represents.

Wallin: But you as a human being, as a step-father in this case, but as a father and a husband ... two kids ... You lose two kids ... What goes on in your head in the middle of the night?

Phipps: Well, as a natural human being, you rail against God as to why this should happen. And Carol would periodically go out into the woods and just let her rip, you know. But, we also experienced tremendous love, care and support from people throughout Canada. You know, getting phone calls from people we didn't even know, saying "We have nothing to say to you other than we're thinking about you and we're really sorry." Its one of those things that doesn't have an explanation. The explanation is Michael suffered from schizophrenia. Both Michael and Catherine were adopted children and were native kids, from the North, from Carol's first marriage. And we don't know what happened to Catherine - we suspect that she suffered from fatal alcohol syndrome. We don't know that because we can't trace it back ...

Wallin: There's not a lot of research.

Phipps: Those are the reasons and she was a very troubled kid, and both her death and Michael's were tragic deaths. If you're looking for reasons, one suffered from schizophrenia, the other from whatever difficulties she had. But God is there in the midst of pain and suffering, that's the biblical God, especially the one we know in Jesus of Nazareth, is not remote from human life or misery or pain. [He's] in the midst of that with us as individuals, but also is in the midst of the struggle politically. So that's one reason why (and you've mentioned some of the things I've done).

While I was working with organizing people in a hard-nosted way in Chicago, to try to bring better housing for people, and to stop blockbusters, and to do something about racism -- that's hard-nosed political organizing; On behalf of the Church, God on the margins there fighting in political organizing. I would go from that kind of experience, to the children's hospital and just sit in a room and hold a woman's hand for two hours while here child is dying.

Now to me, God is in both those places. With grace, with power, and I believe with unconditional love. I mean, one of the interesting things I might be organizing against the racists here and sometimes the families I would be with would be racist. Its irrelevant at the point.

Wallin: You've got to be able to take their hand too.

Phipps: Exactly.

Wallin: But can you?

Phipps: Of course.

Wallin: When moments later, you're carrying the placard?

Phipps: You see that's one of the things I firmly believe is that you and I may disagree on something profoundly. You may be the enemy, and I have to take you in on no uncertain terms, and we should be able to go at each other. But in terms of a human being, both of us are very fragile, vulnerable people. And we're broken in many different ways. It doesn't matter how successful you or I are, or how unsuccessful we are, we're human beings. And that's the fundamental thing. One of the things that really bothers me in today's political climate you know, is the persoanl castigation of people. One of the things I hate when I go on marches and demonstrations and stuff, is that they've decided to burn an effigy. I hate when I go on marches and demonstrations and stuff is that they've decided to burn an effigy. It just turns my stomach. It just turns my stomach.

I think a level of political debate is not very civil these days. It used to be that we would go at each other because we believed in it, on passion, on principle, but never attacking the individual. I learned that in my family. My dad was a very right-wing conservative, both large and small C. Very right wing.

Wallin: So where did you come from?

Phipps: Well, what he taught me was that you always treat people with respect. Always. And he also taught me loyalty and friendship, that you stand by your friends. And I am really lucky that I have friends that I've had since I was five.

Wallin: What would your late father think of the things you've said?

Phipps: He would love me unconditionally, he would say, Bill, I don't agree with the things you are saying, in fact, I don't understand most of it, but his sister is still alive, she's 85, and she said to me the other day... after I preached in Toronto... After lunch, she said, "Bill, I don't understand what the problem is, because I was saying these things in the 1930's at Victoria College at the University of Toronto." I said, "That's great, Aunt Gwen, but what would happen if Dad was alive, here now?' I could see the two of them, with a pot of coffee, going at it, though they loved each other unconditionally. They would never ever think of questioning each other's faith.

Wallin: Because they disagreed.

Phipps: That's right.

Wallin: Interesting point. So all those questions that are out there about 'what's the meaning of life,' 'why are we out here,' 'why did God create all of this and leave us to muck it up,' which we seem to be doing. Any thoughts, any answers?

Phipps: Well, I think every generation has to struggle with that themselves. I've long left behind the idea of progress as just sort of going on forever. I think every generation has to struggle. And that's why I mentioned about the moral economy; and I think we have to struggle afresh as we enter the next century, and how are we going to live together? One of the things that really disturbs me, and I mentioned earlier about the market economy - is that Margaret Thatcher once said, "There is no society, there's only the market."

Wallin: I think she believed that.

Phipps: Oh she did, and so did Rompin' Ronnie, and I think we've been sold a bill of goods the pst 15 or 20 years, and one of the things I like to point is our use of language. We are now called consumers of everything, we are consumers of health care. Our parents would be appalled at that language you know. [We're] consumers of education, we're no longer students or learners or teachers, we're consumers of spirituality.

Wallin: Or we're stakeholders.

Phipps: Or we're stakeholders, all that kind of language with that kind of language ... [take for] instance the Ottawa Citizen article that got me in so much trouble. They asked me questions of Christian orthodoxy for an hour and a half, and in the last fifteen minutes, I got a sermon on the value of the market. The market economy will solve everything.

Phipps: Now I'm saying.

Wallin: You've go the lecture from the people who were asking you the questions? [incredulously]

Phipps: Oh yes, I got the lecture. That's what they believe. That's their faith. They have faith that the market economy is going to do everything for us. And I its not going to do everything for us. And I think that people are looking for, as I said earlier, a moral and ethical basis for our public decision making.

Wallin: Alright, let me just ...

Phipps: More than just saying, leave it up to the market, and if people are poor, its probably their own fault...

Wallin: They don't work hard enough.

Phipps: I mean, the callousness that has crept into public discourse in decision making in the past ten years! Its very subtle, but I think its quite scary, in terms of being un-Canadian.

Wallin: What people look for in leaders such as yourself, and I'm assuming that they look for political leaders too, although there is a high degree of frustration there -- is not for you to be the Ronald Reagan clone, or the ...

Phipps: That's no danger with me.

Wallin: Or the militant leftie on the street carrying placards and taking up the cause of the underprivileged. They are looking for some road to walk, some guidance, some leadership. You are, and you must know that, just as much as if your'd supported Ronald Reagan, as opposed to the other crosses you've embraced, you would be alientating people.

Phipps: Well, Jesus did a pretty good job of that, didn't he?

Wallin: I know, but must t hat be justification for what must be very difficult for many mambers of your congregation, to see you taking up particular issues, very militant, talking fliply about political leaders...

Phipps: Well, I think that may be true.

Wallin: So what are you saying to them, so what?

Phipps: But then you look at people who may be away. I say, if they're Christian, and in the church, what would Jesus have us do? You're talking about people looking for a way, as a Christian, I say, " Look at the way of Jesus." He's sitting at the well talking to women at mid-day; that's breaking down barriers. He's embracing the lepers, he's telling parables about gaps between rich and poor; he's telling the rich its going to be hard to be part of the kingdom of heaven, and so on, and so on. I say, don't listen to me, read your Bible.

Wallin: But they do have to listen to you, in the sense that you say, "Okay, I support the Lubicon Indians, and the settlement, and here's land that should be taken away from other people to be given back, because that's what's fair, and that's what's due and owed. What happens to the people who lose their land? When you're out talking and leading a demonstration against nuclear power, what happens to the people who lose their jobs if the plants close?

Phipps: Well, I think the church in recent years has been very sensitive to that, and I think most of the work we do, and as you know, a lot of that work is done ecumenically, its not just with the United Church but also with the Catholics... We're very careful about saying, 'what are the alternative economies and so on, and so on.

I don't think we're past the time where we're not out in the streets just haranging the individual discussions about what is just, and how can justice be worked out. When you mention the Lubicon and the land, you know, the energy companies have taken eight billion, not million, dollars worth of oil and gas out of that land in the past 20 years, they've had nothing from it, well that's not very just.

So I think we're far more aware and sensitive of the totality of what's going on in a given community, and where we start taking on certain kinds of environmental practices where we try to say, "What does happen to the jobs of people?" What alternative employment is there?" How can this be worked out? I don't think there's any real difficulty in that.

I think the difficultly is that we're afraid to ask the really tough moral questions, like, how many people are asking the question that in Canada since 1989, the number of millionaires is quadrupled in this country, and at the same time, food banks are a growth industry. Even in the city of Calgary, which right now things are in an economic boom, and the unemployment rate is down and so on ... There [are] still people living on the streets and the food banks are still doing a bumper business, to me, that is the sign that there is something wrong with the economy. There's something wrong going on.

Wallin: What moral question is it that people are not asking?

Phipps: Well, I think the moral question is how are people to be included within the total fabric of community.

Wallin: Within this market economy.

Phipps: Yeah, you know the word economy means household. So when I say moral economy, I say, "how do we manage the household we've been given (which is the whole community) with the resources we've been given, without raping the earth, and without a very small group having the vast majority of the resources. That's a biblical term.

Wallin: Why don't you run for office as opposed to becoming moderator of the United Church?

Phipps: Well, one of the reasons is because I think the Church ... its one of the reasons why I'm in ministry instead of practising law ... I think that ministry because of its mandate in the gospels in the whole biblical story can be one of the freest institutions in asking those questions and pushing for those kinds of things. Now, many ministers, like Tommy Douglas, Stanley Knowles and David McDonald, those are some people who've run for public office, and that's great; that's their niche.

But I believe that the church can also be a part of the democratic process, and ask questions of ALL people in the society , including itself. One of the things I did want to say is that we also (talking about children) are lucky to have three children, who are alive and well, and doing great things in university.

Wallin: What do they think about you?

Phipps: They're very protective, actually.

Wallin: Are they?

Phipps: Oh yeah. They think its great and all kinds of fun. The three of them are great kids.

Wallin: And support you for speaking out and taking the heat.

Phipps: Oh sure. Well, my kids have been walking in demonstrations since they were six months old.

Wallin: They know about the guy who killed the Easter bunny. .... In a recent poll of United Church members, 8 out of 10 said they believed in the divinity of Jesus and in a divine Spirit. Do you?

Phipps: Yes.

Wallin: And what is that?

Phipps: [he laughs] Ah, now that's the question.

Wallin: There's the '$64,000.' question.

Phipps: Because people would say, 'I believe in the divinity of Jesus, and everybody would have their own understanding across the spectrum of what that is. One of the things that I've said is that the divine will, the divinity as we understand it, is expressed through Jesus as much as possible as can be expressed through a human being; so when you're looking at Jesus as a window to God, he is a human being who gives us a very special [way?] to God, and therefore is the Son of God. God is like this [gestures broadly] - here's the Son, Jesus [much smaller gestures] through whom we catch a glimpse of the divine will and divine nature.

Wallin: I hope I'm not taking this out of context, but I believe it was Albert Schweizer who wrote that trying to answer this question is like looking down a well in which you always see back your own reflection. In pursuing this, for someone who does the work of God, What do you see when you look down that well? Do you see you there?

Phipps: Oh sometimes you do, and I think that's why; and I think that's why community is important in spiritual journeys. I don't think you can go on a spiritual journey by yourself, because of that very thing, you are likely to see your own reflection. The thing that Judeo-Christian tradition has always been is a community of people. The more we try to live out that faith ... the more important it is to have the community hold us accountable, so that when we struggle over a particular thing - like the Lubicon issue for example, or the untimely death of a child. We need the community to help us understand scripture and to understand God's will, and its the checks and balances of that. That's why the great tradition in Judaism is the great rabbis arguing over scripture; just opening it up on opposite sides and going after it ...

That's a process of accountability and saying that we are dealing with mystery. But in the Judeo-Christian tradition, we're dealing with a mystery that has very profound, practical implications for everyday life as to how we live together. We need the community to help us understand what the moral thing is and so on.

Wallin: So what is faith?

Phipps: Well, faith fundamentally is for me, having the faith that we do believe in a God of unconditional love. To me, the bottom line is a biblical God loves us unconditionally, and therefore to take risks, to look stupid, to get into the community, and try to do the best we can to try and make this world a more just and loving place, and if we screw it up, we know that God loves us anyway. And that's why the image of God as PARENT is not a bad image, because most parents love their kids unconditionally. Regardleses of all the things they do, we go back at it, again. So, that's a huge leap of faith. But faith to me is that we have a God, a creator, who loves us unconditionally, and the Christian says, that we see that unconditional love most profoundly in Jesus of Nazareth.

Wallin: And how do you reconcile that as a well-educated intelligent man with all of the other religious views that exist out there that don't accept that?

Phipps: Oh I think ... I have said in this whole thing that Jesus is not the only way to God ... That there are many religious traditions that have stood the test of time. We're not just talking about the ones that sprund up yesterday, and will be on the consumer shelf tommorrow. I'm talking about religious traditions like First Nations spirituality, Buddhism, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, and so on, that have stood the test of time.

All have a pathway to God ... to me one of the bad things that's been happening is global corporatization of the world ... One of the good things that is happening is greater interfaith contact. What that means is that we sit down with each other out of genuine respect, not out of an interest to convert each other, but to learn from each other, to learn their religious insights.

One of the things that's helped me ... I was raised in white middle-class North Toronto, so I'm one of those Torontonians, right? But then, I moved out to Alberta fifteen years ago, and was lucky to work in the Northwest Territories and other places. The spirituality of the First Nations people I've been in contact with has deepened my [own] faith. It hasn't watered it down or made it any less, its deepened it. Because I can appreciate the religious traditions which they have, which see God in creation in a far more profound way (traditionally anyway) than my own tradition has.

Wallin: But there are lots of...

Phipps: Its helped me see the Bible ... in a different way, in a more comprehensive way.

Wallin: When you see the extremism that arises from religious fervour in Islam ...

Phipps: Well, religious fundamentalism of whatever stripe is dangerous , because it is self-righteous, and it is arrogant, and it does see other people as the enemy. But I've seen Israel a number of years ago, and there is one thing ... that you can't help but be moved by it ... are the Christians, Jews and Muslims in the peace movements ... We've probably met a whole bunch of people in different groups and organizations, who are the contravailing peace forces against the religious fundamentalists of either Judaism, Islam or Christianity. Well, that's inspiring. That's where the global village ...

Wallin: How do you go on this? How open minded are you? Do you think faith healing occurs?

Phipps: It depends on what you mean by faith healing. There's a number of United Churches that are doing what you call healing services, and that's not like the television evangelists coming up and hitting you on the forehead... and saying [that] you're healed. It has to do with understanding that life and human beings are physical, mental and spiritual. Its a wholistic understanding, and of really using the experience of prayer, meditation and those kinds of things that do make a difference. You're talking about hard, cold logic ... the scientists ... and medical people of this world are discovering the spiritual dimension of life. Doctors will tell you that if a person suffering from cancer has a strong religious belief, [they] have a greater chance of recovery, or at least coping with the disease, for a whole variety of reasons. Its not miraculous, its part of [what] we are as daughters and sons of God.

Wallin: But practising your spirituality in the view of Bill Phipps, is not enough.

Phipps: What do you mean?

Wallin: You've got to put your money where your mouth is, or your feet on the pavement.

Phipps: You're right. But that's the Biblical story. The wonderful thing about the Older Testament you know, is that they weren't theoretical about justice. They didn't have great statements about it, but there's some beautiful poetic language, I'd invite anybody to read.

Wallin: Some of the eye for eye stuff though, isn't it?

Phipps: Oh sure its there, and that's way you need to understand it. But you know even that was a progression. Because it used to be, somebody plucks out your eye, you kill t them. So the eye for the eye was progress in terms of morality. People don't realize that. It shows the development of Judaism over that time period.

Wallin: I wish we had more time to talk. We'll have to invite you back again. It was nice to meet you.

Phipps: Nice to meet you too.

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