******************************
What are Christians doing celebrating the birth of Krishna and what is the "coming together with the Christ consciousness"? Your association with ALPHA and the Billy Graham crusade gave me the assurance that you would declare Jesus as the only way to God. Now, I am not so sure. Please clarify. Are you asking us Christians to mingle our prayers with those of other faiths? "What fellowship can light have with darkness?" (II Cor.6:14) I await some clarification.
concerned,
Dan Thiessen
**************************************
Tony,
I am very disappointed with your response to my concerns. I, too, am
very concerned with world peace but also see the scriptures clearly
indicating there will be no peace until Jesus comes.
With regards to praying in concert with people of other faiths, I have a huge warning signal that I am surprised did not go off in you. To pray in concert means to validate the pray-er and the one to whom the pray-er is praying. Will Buddha indeed hear a buddhists prayer, Mohammed a muslims or Hare Krishna listen to one of his follower's supplications? These "faiths" are distinctly anti-Christ because of their denial of Jesus' deity and His declaration of being the ONLY way to God, the Father.
God, Himself, said that He searched the heavens and found no other gods. He is the one and only true God to whom I pray. If that is true, to whom do people of other faiths pray? Is there not only two options. One is God. There is one multi-faith prayer concert in the scripture when Elijah challenged the prophets of Baal. We all know how that one ended. God is God, there is no other.
Also, to disparage Remembrance Day when we recollect fond memories of those who paid the price for our freedom by associating it with this Silent Minute is also quite disturbing. I am greatly thankful for those who sacrificed their lives for my freedom. I do not, however, pray to them or for them, as some faiths are prone to do.
There needs to be a line drawn. Not by me or you or anyone but God, Himself. If He is the only God, if He sent His son to die on the cross for us, if Jesus rose from the dead to provide us our victory over sin, if we have everlasting life by believing that Jesus is the only Son of God and that He did what the scriptures says he did, if any spirit that denies any of the above is anti-Christ, then I have absolutely no business consorting with that opposing spirit.
I can see in your desire for world peace your willingness to drop your guard. There is a movement in our society today called "inclusion" where compromise is the byword. By traveling that road you are, however, entering dangerous territory. My concern is for you and for all you come in contact with. Can you, with precise determination, say that all people of other faiths are destined for hell? If you can not, what will your counsel be to those inquirers who are confused by our multi-faith society?
I must say, again, that I am very disappointed that a person with such a high community profile as yourself would take such an erroneous public stand. You could have such a tremendous influence on those who come in contact with you via your several means of communication. I can only pray that the Spirit of the Lord reveal His truth to you; a truth that is validated by the Word of God. After all, isn't the Word of God our final authority? I believe so.
still concerned,
Dan Thiessen
***********************************8
From: aj624@freenet.carleton.ca[SMTP:aj624@freenet.carleton.ca]
Sent: June 1, 1998 10:53 PM
To: thiessen@cyberus.ca
Subject: Re: Silent Minute
Dan: this will be a terribly brief answer, because I am way behind schedule
today. I will re-read your words carefully, and I respect your opinion.
On first reading however, I found several areas where my conscience isn't
in synch with your thesis. I can only promote what I believe, which may not
be acceptable to all.
Bottom line; I'll kneel down with any Muslim or Hindoo and we can all pray
together. No problem for me there.
My faith is based on logic, prayer, and what I feel to be right in a world
created by God. A world including Muslims and Hindoos, whom he loves.
By the way, I doubt that I am any influence on anybody. You are one of a
very small number who has ever responded to anything I've ever written or
said. Bless you for your ministry.
I've heard United Church members being just as critical about Billy Graham
as you have been of me. We all should follow our conscience. Most folk
won't say boo in case someone criticizes them.
- Tony
**************************************
From: REV4AL@aol.com (unknown)
To: aj624@freenet.carleton.ca
Subject: Re: An important announcement for all people of faith
Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 22:36:01 EDT
Tony,
I am sorry but I find your concept of syncratistic prayer unappetizing to my spiritual life. I will not pray together with any group who pray to other than the Creator, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. I have no desire to honour chrishna in any way.
I believe you to be sincere, for I have read some of your other info, but please do not include me in any more mail on re: this sort of exercise.
Thank you , and God's blessings
Alan Dowber
************************************
From: laurie_annzachar@hotmail.com ("Laurie-Ann Zachar")
To: aj624@freenet.carleton.ca
Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 07:50:39 PDT
Carole B sent me an e-note about Silent Minute. Silent Minute's okay - but the Hindu element can be problematic and confusing. Anyone with a past like mine cannot take part. But I hope that it could be used as a bridge to the gospel - if it is real repentance, focused to Jesus, than the Lord will work through it.
L-A
*********************************
Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 01:17:19 -0700
Tony- I am greatly impressed by Laurie-Ann's two major papers on your
website!! They are remarkably well researched- awesome! And though she
is unswervingly orthodox, she is never vindictive- she is very fair in
her assessments of those of differing theology, and always gives credit
wherever she feels it is due. Thanks for making these available to us!
But the "Moment of Prayer" - I cannot join in it. For the same reason
that I disagree intensely with the move within the UC towards religious
pluralism. To me the issue is JESUS- who he is, and what he did upon the
cross- his utter uniqueness. Worshipping him goes FAR beyond
"Christ-consciousness." I cannot join in prayer to "Brahma" - which in
Hindu thought encompasses ALL - including evil. The Christian God,
Father, Son and Holy Spirit, is holy, pure, separate from evil. All is
NOT one.
I am enclosing as an attachment a few thoughts on this matter.
Sincerely,
1_"multiculturalism". and "religious pluralism." We are encouraged to learn more
about people of different races and cultures. And it
is right that we should do this, that we should come to
appreciate and respect more fully other
cultures.
But when it comes to religion, we need to be very
careful as to what we do. There is a move today towards the blending of all religions into one- the idea that all religious roads
lead to the one God. To accept this view, we would
have to deny much of what Jesus
taught us; and we would have to reject Jesus as
the only Son of God, since according to this teaching he was wrong on so many things. Try sometime going through the four Gospels
of the New Testament to see how much of what Jesus
said does not fit in with this view.
In opposing this teaching, we are not saying that we, as Christians, are better than people of other world religions. It is a matter of Jesus, the only begotten Son of God:
do we believe that is who he really is? If he truly is
the Son of God, who came from God to show us what
God is really like and to tell us what God requires of us, then we can believe what he taught us. And much of what he taught simply does not fit in with things that Buddha, Mohammed, Hindu scriptur
s, etc. teach.
Many of these teachings are "mutually exclusive"- that is, if a certain thing is true, then certain other things cannot be true. It does not all nicely blend
together!
It is not a matter of "different religions simply having different names for the same God." Islam, Hinduism,
Buddhism, etc. teach radically different things about
God: things that just cannot fit together.
For example, Hinduism says that all is God (Brahman), and God is all. I am God, a part of Ultimate
Reality, as is nature and everything that is. It is not a personal, loving God, who knows me intimately and
loves me deeply. We worship Jesus as truly God, and
he came to reveal to us a loving heavenly Father. Is
he right, or are the teachings of Hinduism?
Within Brahman, Hinduism says
there is a Trinity of Gods: Brahma, Vishnu, and
Shiva - Creator, Preserver, and Destroyer. These are not simply another version of the Christian view of the Trinity! Their "creator" is impersonal, not One who knows
me and loves me. Shiva, the Destroyer, destroys the
world every few million years, and Brahma creates it again. Vishnu has come to Earth many times in a
human body to show the way to God. Ram and
Krishna are the two most popular of these "incarnations". But they are only legends, myths!
Perhaps they represent a longing in the hearts of mankind for the Son of God who actually did come to
Earth - Jesus, an actual historical fact, not a legend.
He was fully God and fully man.
Hinduism teaches that there are also a
multitude of lesser gods to be worshipped. You choose
your gods for worship. This goes completely contrary to
what Jesus taught us.
All the religions of the world exist because humans have a longing for God, which God himself placed within us.
But the "gods" which other religions have conjectured
fall so far short of the loving heavenly Father whom Jesus revealed to us.
And there is a major block
which prevents anyone from reaching God: the problem
of sin. All human beings have committed sins. God is
holy, and sin simply cannot exist in His presence.
Therefore, we cannot have fellowship with God. It is not that God is being vindictive and demands that a penalty be paid for sin. It is just that unless something is done about our sin, we could not
survive in his holy presence.
The cross is God's remedy for this problem. On the cross, Jesus bore
the sin of all mankind and paid the price for it.
Because of that, God can offer forgiveness of sin to all
who will receive it, to all who will turn to Him in
genuine repentance with a desire for a new heart.
Only in Christianity does this remedy for sin exist.
Both Hinduism and Buddhism teach "Karma", the law of sowing and reaping. You must pay for every
wrong deed, and you are rewarded for every good deed.
If your good deeds outweigh your bad deeds, you advance to a higher state in your next life (since they also believe in reincarnation). If you were very bad,
you may return in the form of an insect or some animal. There is absolute justice at the heart of the
universe; there is no mercy.
Christianity also says that we reap what we sow in life. God is just and fair, but he is also merciful and loving.
Because of the cross where he himself, in his son Jesus,
paid the price of sin, he is able in all fairness and justice to extend mercy to anyone who will truly turn to
him for it. This is grace. It is found only in Jesus.
It is based on what he did on the cross.
Reincarnation is another teaching which cannot be
reconciled with Christianity. It says mankind has many
opportunities to live a truly good life. If one does a
poor job of it in one lifetime, he will have another
chance in the next. This may appear to be an
attractive teaching, but it ends up being a chain
binding mankind to an endless cycle of rebirths. The Bible says it is given to man once to die, and after
that the Judgement. These are not both true; it is vitally important to determine which is true.
Hinduism teaches that Brahman is ultimately neither good nor evil; it is above and beyond both good and
evil. Actually it incorporates into itself both good and evil! This is because of its teaching that all is one. That does not fit in with the Christian concept of good
and evil being opposite and irreconcilable powers. These two teachings are not both true.
The Bible has many references to an evil power named
Satan, or the devil. Many do not believe in him, or in a place called Hell. But the
same Book that tells us of heaven tells us of hell; the
same Book that tells us of God tells us of Satan. If
we deny their existence, it is a matter of our word
against the Bible. The reality of Hell gives an urgency
to spiritual matters. It does make a difference what
we believe, and whether or not it is really true. It matters whether or not God is truly a holy God with
whom we cannot have fellowship apart from the
forgiveness of our sins, and whether or not what Jesus
did on the cross is the only way to obtain that
forgiveness.
Another major difference is in regard to human nature. Hinduism teaches that man is God, part of Brahman.
Christianity says the spirit which God has placed in man, the soul, is a spark of the divine, intended to
achieve union with God; but it is not God himself. In
heaven, we will bow down and worship God. He will
not worship us. He will love and rejoice in us, but he
will not worship us. He is the Creator; we are the created. Also, Christ will come and dwell within us, upon our invitation, and he wants to gradually change us into his likeness, until we become m
re and more Christ-like. But we will be like him; we will not be
God.
We can admire the mysticism of Hinduism. Indeed
Christianity is intended to be much more mystical than
the average church would portray it to be. But we need to remember that all spiritual experience is not
from God. There are two spiritual forces,good and evil, God and Satan, and it is a matter of life and death which of these we make
contact with.
Pantheism is a basic Hindu teaching. It says all is Brahman (God). Therefore nature is also God. Christianity says God created nature; it reveals his
handiwork and points us to him, but it is not God.
Thus far we have considered some of the teachings of
Hinduism. To compare major world religions is a vast
undertaking, and here we can only touch upon it - sufficiently to show that they are not pretty much all the same thing with only different names for God!
Buddhism teaches that there is no God, no divine
being- not even the impersonal Brahman of Hinduism (though one branch teaches that the Buddha became
divine, and has power to help individuals achieve the
goal of Nirvana.)
Buddhism says that all suffering in life comes from desire- the desire for earthly possessions and pleasures. If one can cease to desire anything, then one will
escape the shackles of earthly bondage and be truly free.
The freedom that is sought is compared to the snuffing out of a candle- annihilation. The aim of Hinduism
is absorbtion- compared to a drop of water merging with the ocean; all its identity is lost. Christianity
teaches that in heaven we are truly set free, we become
fully Chrits-like, and we worship and praise God. We free and fulfilled persons, neither absorbed nor annihilated. These varying teachings are not all true!
Islam says there is one God, with Christianity and
Judaism being the main influence in this direction.
But this God is utterly majestic and distant, so far
above and beyond man that the Incarnation of God in Jesus is totally inconceivable; therefore Jesus is seen as a great prophet (though not as great as Mohammed!), but certainly not the Son of God.
Likewise the thought of this holy and distant God bearing the sin of mankind
is unthinkable- i.e. the Atonement. Thus although Islam teaches of one God, and a personal God at that (though far removed from mankind) - yet there is no way for man to receive forgiveness of sin
so he may
draw near to God. Indeed the idea of God dwelling within sinful man, as Christianity teaches, is unthinkable. "Christ in you, the hope of glory" - making possible an intimate fellowship with a loving God - this idea is foreign to Islam.
Let us indeed love and respect those of other world religions. But let us each answer for ourselves the vital Question: "Who do you say that I am?" Who is this Jesus? If he truly is the Son of God
then we can believe the things he taught us. If he is not the Son
of God, if he was wrong about so much of what he
taught, then let us no longer worship him and no longer follow the Christian faith.
We can admire the mysticism of Hinduism. Indeed
Christianity is intended to be much more
**********************************
To Carole Burton
Carole: this is the best statement I have ever read on religions.
You are highly knowledgeable. I accept and agree with every word.
I highly respect your feelings. Thank you for being gentle about it. I had
some response which was written in very strong language suggesting
that it is basically sinful to cooperate with non-Christians or be in
their presence.
I don't see it that way. My faith isn't compromised by standing with
a non-Christian. I in no way agree with their beliefs. But if two
people from different faiths including no-faith both have the same
aim, ie peace, and have different ways to ask for it, the one based
on a misguided religion does not taint the one based on the truth
(Christianity). However, there is every possibility that the true
faith may influence the believers in the other religions.
At lease that's the way I see it.
Didn't Jesus preach as much with the Good Samaritan?
No Christian will be praying to Khrishna on Aug 15.
- Tony
**************************
Dear Tony:
I do believe that Prayer is powerful and that especially prayer by many
as our Lord has taught us. But I believe that we must be praying in the
name of Jesus Christ. I believe that he alone is the mediator to the
Father. I don't believe that joining minds around the world in a prayer
of agreement will bring peace. But I am confident that we can find
peace in and through Jesus Christ. Since I have become a Christian I
have experienced many situations where God has broken then enmity
between myself and others because of our relationship to Jesus. He is
the one who holds us together and can bring us to peaceful.
relationships.
I am worried that this Silent Minute, Tony may be an instrument of the
New Age movement. As I read about it I felt very unsettled in my spirit
and I have learned to trust this as discernment. Can you tell me more
about it. Since the United Church right now is presenting a pluralism
that says all religions lead to God and all religions have equal
validity before God, I am concerned about what this is all about. I do
not believe that Jesus is just one window to God. I believe He is THE
window, and that He IS GOD.
But please tell me more!!
***********************************
From: aj624@freenet.carleton.ca[SMTP:aj624@freenet.carleton.ca]
Thanks for your comments Gail: you aren't the only concerned respondent,
but you are the most articulate.
Visit my web site for more background. Or go straight to the actual page:
http://www.igs.net/~tonyc/silentminute.html
for some more info.
I hope nothing I have said there can be interpreted as a suggestion that
we (Christians) should pray in the name of any other than Jesus.
Where the confusion seems to be is that I don't mind if Hindoos,
Buddists and even New Agers also want to pray or meditate in their own
(misguided) ways for the same end. To me that doesn't detract from my
prayers in His name. Indeed the evidence suggests that mass thought-power
in a secular environment can be marshalled. My correspondents are
suggesting that if a Christan and a Hindoo both ask for the same, then
either of them is somehow tainted by the other. That the one
condones the other. Non-sequitur. That's the same non-logic that says
that if a glass of water and a glass of cyanide are both poured into the
same hazardous waste receptacle, the person who previously drank from the
water will be poisoned.
I was praying for guidance in this this morning, to be given a sign from
God that I am not suggesting anything that did not come from him. I
opened my eyes and read yesterday's prayer for all involved in the Billy
Graham Mission, which was on the bed for my prayer session: It said :
"for hundreds to attend the Mission and receive Christ from the Arabic,
Cambodian, Mandarin, Portuguese, Spanish and Vietnamese communities".
This is not the first time I have received a direct instant answer to a
prayer for guidance. We as Christians should act as leaders in the world
spiritual community working together for the good of the world. This can
only enhance our standing in the eyes of members of other religions and
encourage them to join us. That's how I see things. I am associated with
The Silent Minute because it exists out of the results of the most extreme
example I know of the power of prayer (see the web). I see the other
religions in the way Jesus suggested in The Good Samaritan. I don't have
it in my heart to dissociate myself from other humans because they
haven't yet come to know Jesus.
**********************
From: laurie_annzachar@hotmail.com ("Laurie-Ann Zachar")
Hi Tony
You didn't say that Christians would pray in any other name but Jesus. I
even told Carole B that God would use it - as what I call a point of
contact - but for many who are very sensitive, they would not be able to
handle it. I am one of those people - concerning Hinduism or Taoism. I
can and do pray with Muslims....
It's just an area where you have to be careful.
L-A
[end]
From: Carole Burton
To: tonyc@igs.net
Carole Burton
From Tony Copple
Blessings
Gail
Sent: June 6, 1998 10:00 AM
To: ivylodge@planeteer.com
Subject: Re: An important announcement for all people of faith
To: aj624@freenet.carleton.ca
Subject: Re: An important announcement for all people of faith
Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 16:15:42 PDT