Introduction and explanation:

What follows is a somewhat long discussion of the Clan Mhac an t'Saoir of Erin (the McAteers), and their relationship (if any) to Clan Mac an t'Saoir of Alba (the MacIntyres). John McLaughlin, historian for Clan McLaughlin, discusses the matter with James McAteer Sr., James McAteer Jr., Brian McAteer, and Peter McEntyre. The discussion arrives at some hard conclusions almost immediately, and then drifts slowly away from them, and back to them, and then away from them, and . . . .

Well, we won't spoil the fun by telling you! A sudden twist well into the discussion, took most of us by surprise. As you read, you may feel your head spinning, as these gentlemen dredge up more and more information. It is worth the read, as you must surely go through the same processes in your own thinking. Pour yourself a little something, put your feet up, and read on.

Faithfully,
Uaine,
Web-leprechaun for Clan Mhac an t'Saoir

Post script:

New material dealing with the possible entry of our clansmen into Scotland by way of Iona has not yet been published. We hope to post it soon.

Sunday, Nov 21, 1999
John writes:

I checked my sources on the first Mac an t-saoir, St. Ciaran, and it appears as though the earliest annals were written entirely in Latin, and describe him simply as "filii artificis," or 'son of the artificer.' Then the Annals of Ireland (ca. 1650) spell t-saoir with a small 's'; the Annals of Tigernach have a capital "s" . The later annal entries for other mac an t-saoirs seem to vary between small and capital "s" so I'm not sure much can be inferred from this usage.

The passage stating that his mother was Dar Erca, from whom many saints were born should not be taken literally, as far as I can tell. I think it really means that these saints were born in her line and that she was an ancestor, not literally a mother of all of them.

I've recently done a study of the Macmeanman surname in Donegal and was able to discover that this family were actually a branch of the O'Donnells. Like the MacAteers, the MacMeanmans (MacMenimen, MacMenamon) were a fairly small sept with unknown origins and without a pedigree preserved in any genealogical manuscript. But in the Papal Letters, they are described as the "Macmeanman O'Donnells," a clear indication that they were a branch of the ruling O'Donnell sept of Tirconnell. This descent of the MacMeanmans had been completely lost in Irish records - not a hint of this descent appears in any of the surname books or pedigree collections.

I think as research continues into these little known, little researched family names in Donegal that we're going to find many such 'lost' connections for the families involved. Many of them will turn out to be 'lost' branches of other, better known families. The fact that the last Mac an t-Saoir in the Annals was an O Brolchain, a Donegal sept, in 1097, I think is significant, particularly since this was about the time when surnames were first being adopted in Ireland. After studying the MacMeanman O'Donnell material, I think it even more likely that the MacAteers could have been a branch of this well-known and respected old Donegal family.

The last Mac an t-Saoir in the Annals was actually Michael, bishop of Clogher in Tryone Co., in 1288. By this date the mac an t-Saoir nickname had clearly become a surname. The fact that this Michael was a bishop of Clogher in Tyrone is not very important - men from other counties were routinely made bishops of dioceses outside of their home counties. And the fact that he was a bishop did not mean he could not have had children - many, if not all of them did have wives or concubines and numerous offspring during this period of Irish history. The MacMeanman prelates in the Papal Letters all had children; as did two O Gallagher Bishops of Raphoe in Donegal.

The Scottish tale of the cousin of Somerled who stuck his finger in a hole in the ship's bottom and thus became known as the 'son of the wright' is of course complete nonsense, an attempt to explain a name whose origins had been lost in the mists of antiquity. To think that a man might be called a 'wright' for sticking his finger in a hole in a ship is ludicrous, in my opinion. And the legend at any rate applied to the Scottish MacIntyres, not the Irish MacAteers, who most certainly had a uniquely Irish origin.

I would entirely disregard O'Hart's statement that the Mac an t-Saoirs were descended from the line of the MacCurtins by an ancestor named Saorbreitheamh. O'Hart had a bad habit of guessing at the descent of various families for whom he couldn't find a pedigree. He is completely unreliable when he makes such statements.

John D. McLaughlin

PS. I'm still on the lookout for new Mac an t-Saoir material but I haven't found anything lately. I of course will do so if anything interesting turns up.

Uaine,
Web-leprechaun.

Saturday, Jan 8, 2000
Brian writes:

Hope you had a great Christmas, and that the new millennium is treating you well. . . .

I am nearly through Farley Mowat's latest book, "The Farfarers", in which he addresses a question which has bothered me for years. That is, why was Newfoundland not populated by the Irish, or at least Europeans, since the time of St. Brendan, at least. Mowat's conclusion seems to be that it has been settled since before 1000 AD, and that the original settlers are still there. So far he has been making a convincing case for early settlement. That has some implications for us, as John Cabot recorded finding Irish vessels at Newfoundland, and his footnote has been largely ignored by historians.

. . . .

Uaine,
Web-leprechaun.

Wednesday, Jan 12, 2000
John writes:

I agree with you on the origin of the Scottish MacIntyres. I can't see any connection at all with the Irish surname - nor can I concieve of any connection to St.Ciaran. The problem with the Scots is they have no written histories or pedigrees worth mentioning prior to the 13th century. Their clan histories are a bunch of fables, pseudo-histories, and legend, and perhaps some vaguely remembered political affiliations among clans.

I've reached a bit of a dead end on the Irish Mac an t-Saoir material. The last reference I could find in the Annals occurred in the O'Brolchain of Donegal family, in either 1029 or 1097, depending on which Annal entry you accept as correct, followed by a Michael Mac-an-tShair in 1268, Bishop of Clogher in Tyrone Co. This last is definitely a surname, as apposed to the uses in the earlier Annal entries, which are merely descriptive terms.

We've never really come up with a good explanation of the Mac an t-Saoir tag, except in my opinion there's little doubt it does not mean son of the wright. Or if it did mean that, it was used figuratively in some sense (perhaps meaning saintly, like St. Ciaran, or even Christlike (Christ was a carpenter or wright himself). Or it could have some meaning related to church-building or construction. The O'Brolchains were noted for their construction of churches in Derry.

So it's tempting to conclude that the McAteers of Donegal, at any rate, may have been a branch of the O'Brolchains of Donegal. The period 1029 - 1268 was the period when surnames first appeared in Ireland. One family I've studied recently, the MacMeanmans of MacMenimans of Donegal, were a branch of the O'Donnells who originated as a separate family in 1303.

There are similar surnames in Ireland, most notably Mac Airchinnaigh, or "son of the Herenagh." There are several such families described in O'Clery's book of genealogies. In one of these, the surname was taken from an ancestor named Donnchadha oirchindigh or Donnogh the herenagh. There are probably other such examples as well. If anyone would like a copy of this pedigree I can send it to them.

This would be quite similar to a family basing its surname on a man named Maoil Brigdhe Mac an t-Saoir (as in the pedigree of the O'Brolchains).

I would be quite interested in hearing your own interpretations of this material. I'm sure you'll have some insights and interpretations neither Brian nor myself have thought of. That's why Brian put our letters on the web page. To stir debate and conversation about the origins of the family.

Wednesday, Jan 12, 2000
Brian writes:

Well, of course there's no proof that St. Ciaran was in our direct line, but there's no proof that he wasn't, either, and he had to belong to somebody.

About the title - in many callings there is a sort of gold standard. For example, Moslems must travel to Mecca, psychiatrists must undergo psycho-analysis, and computer people should master a machine language to become the real thing. In early times, monks helped build their own buildings, so perhaps Mhac an t'Saoir was the title of a "real" churchman, who had actually built a church. Certainly, at the end of the exercise, such a cleric would be a fully qualified craftsman, and could be called a son of St. Joseph.

Just to go a bit further than you did, John - I sense an English hand at work in much of Scottish history. At a certain point, the English displaced the Irish monks in Scotland, and Gaelic literacy was replaced by English. After Culloden, the possession of Gaelic writings was a punishable offence.

Now you (John) have shown that the MacDonalds were allies of the O'Donnells, and that the Mac an t'Saoirs were related to, or neighbours of these two peoples on either side of the Irish Sea. This seems to me to support the case that the McAteers and the MacIntyres are the Irish and Scottish sides of the same family. Especially if the O'Donnells and the Mac Donalds turn out to be the same people.

Personally, I suspect that the Mhac an t'Saoirs were sea folk living in the islands of the Irish Sea, and along either coast. When the neolithic farmers arrived, they further marginalized the mesolithic aboriginals, and these latter folk retreated back to the sea shore and river banks which were their original haunt (like the Inuit, but they would have been of a lighter complection than the Danubian farmers). There is some evidence of this in Ireland.

It follows that the island and coastal people could well be the last vestiges of the mesolithic people, and that they were there to ferry the neolithic farmers across into Ireland, and millennia later, to ferry them back to Alba. If the Mhac an t'Saoirs are the descendants of the mesolithic people, it would go a long way toward explaining a lot of McAteer traits.

Thursday, Jan 13, 2000
Brian writes:

Dear James, James, Peter and John:

(Sounds like a letter to the Apostles!)

This is one of the most difficult areas in our history, and the trouble is there is a bit of truth to many of the theories. The McAteers and the MacIntyres are today so intermixed, there will be no separating them, and even if we don't know the whole truth about our history, we do know of many instances where it got further muddled.

Much of our digging here has been based on population distributions and migration patterns. For example, we assumed the Tyres would be McAteers, but their migration pattern said no, and that subsequently turned out to be right. We were able to show that the McTyres were probably not Ulster folk by their distribution pattern, and that agreed with their own folk lore, so it is probably correct. So we have come to trust the "geography" method.

Now the distribution of the McAteers and MacIntyres, and the similarity of the Gaelic names, suggests to me that they are the same people. For the same reason, I suspect that the Ross derived MacTyres are unrelated. John has pointed out that the MacIntyres were not churchmen, but (a) I believe there were some famous clerics among them (will dig into that one, but didn't one of them write hymns?) and (b) the English wiped out the infrastructure of the church in Scotland, and there is simply no extant history of the Gaelic times in Scotland, and no way of knowing whether or not they were involved with the church.

We may be looking at the answer to one of the riddles of history here. The "Scots" began a massive migration out of Ireland (one presumes from Donegal and Derry) in the early five hundreds, at a time when Ireland's then established history of sanctuary and scholarship was attracting the learned men from all over Europe. The Irish were as literate a people as any in the world at that time.

Next, the Scots turn up with no written literature, and no history before the second millennium. Now, either the Scots were Ireland's illiterates, or their history has been deliberately destroyed. We know from Irish history, that there were Irish monasteries all over Scotland in the first millennium, and that they were doing much the same thing there that they did in Ireland. So Scotland should have been as literate as Ireland or any other European country.

My theory is that the Scots were probably quite a literate people, and that there was a later battle between English and Gaelic literacy, resulting in the disappearance of most of Scottish history and literature. It is well established that after Culloden, the Gaelic tongue was proscribed in Scotland, and it was a punishable offense to possess Gaelic writings. Anyone with doubts about a suppression of Scottish culture should read David Craig's book about the destruction of the Highland people, called "On the Crofters' Trail."

Our local library has a book which proves the Highland Clearance never took place, or if it did, only a handful of people were affected. It is quite common to hear Scottish "experts" denying it, and in fact there is nearly no history of it in Scotland. However, there is a vivid folk memory of it in Nova Scotia. David Craig recorded many folk accounts, handed down for generations through Scottish families, which in some cases described the towns the people had fled, and the route they had taken out. Craig followed these "verbal maps" backward in Scotland, and in many cases found ruins of long deserted crofter settlements, in the middle of forests. In the case of the MacIntyres, they were so thoroughly displaced that later "experts" declared theirs a clanless surname. The original MacIntyre lands are now largely forested.

Perhaps the chief reason Scottish clans acknowledge little or no connection with Ireland is the historic imperative to side with the English. Families who refused are extinct or living elsewhere. For the Scots to deny descent from the Irish flies in the face of reality. We have the O'Neills, the O'Donnells, the Mhac an t'Saoirs and so on, on the West bank of the Irish Sea, and the MacNeills, MacDonnells and Mac Donalds, and the Mac an t'Saoirs on the opposite bank a few miles away, and none of them are related?

There is the O'Donnell - MacDonald connection which I find very interesting. It is common for families to travel together, and if these two tribes turn out to be related, then is seems to me to greatly increase the chances that the Mac an t'Saoirs are too. You know, the burden of proof is not with us to show the Scots are related to the Irish - it's for the nay-sayers to prove their case. So I would say, show us that we are not related to the MacIntyres.

My preferred theory at the moment is that the mesolithic hunter-gatherers either never really invaded the interiors of the isles, or were pushed back to their original haunts by the invasion of Danubian farmers at or before 4000 BC. They developed along the coast in their own way, as sea people, and slowly became marginalized enough to resort to the islands of the Irish sea. Later, as the fisheries became more profitable, they became more populous, and spilled over into Scotland along with the other invaders in the sixth century, and probably into Ireland as well.

These would have been the people who provided the ships to move the first waves of Danubian farmers into Ireland in the fourth millennium B.C., and if they has persisted in the isles of the Irish Sea, they would have later provided the transportation for the re-invasion of Scotland in the sixth century A.D.

If this is the origin of the Mhac an t'Saoirs, then we must be one of the most ancient of "Irish" families. Our people would have been the fair haired aboriginal hunter gatherers the Danubian farmers encountered when they began invading from the east. Could this explain some of the thorny individualism (I mean this in the nicest possible way!) which persists among the McAteers of today?

Glad to see someone has come up with a rational explanation for the name "Kintyre." The Mull is close enough to the original MacIntyre lands that one is tempted to conclude that the original MacIntyres must have invaded across onto the Mull of Kintyre, and worked their way inland, leaving only their name behind. If they came out of the isles though, they would hardly have chosen a landfall on The Mull. It makes much more sense to have landed where they did, in Loch Etive.

Incidently, one of the original towns of the MacIntyres was Bonawe, which means "mouth of the River Awe." If you look for Bonawe, you will find it slightly inland, on the opposite side of the loch from the River Awe, and not near any water. This athlete among towns has stood up, torn lose its roots, and bodily hurled itself across Loch Etive, into the woods opposite. It seems someone opened a quarry on the other side of the Loch, and as there was no employment at Bonawe, the townspeople moved across, taking the name with them.

Another interesting note about Glenoe. Knight and Lomas, in their book "The Hiram Key" mention discovering graves of Knights Templar at or near Glenoe. They claim that some of the Knights Templar escaped the extermination in France, taking the Templar fleet with them, and that they landed in Scotland where they knew they would find sanctuary. Indeed the Templar fleet was known to exist, and it is otherwise unaccounted for. The authors claim that the Templars sailed from Scotland, crewed with local seamen (the MacIntyres?) to an unknown site in the New World. Recently some evidence of a very early Christian presence has turned up near Boston. Of course, Jacques Cartier reported that the Indians of the Gulf of St. Laurence region greeted his men (circa 1534 A.D.) by making the sign of the cross.

John mentioned the triple cross in the arms of the MacIntyres. When I first saw this symbol, it reminded me of the "triple tau" symbol used by the Masons, if not by the Knights Templar. In the arms it is protruding upward from the mailed hand. Protruding downward is the blade of a dagger. Surely a strange juxtaposition of symbols, the cross being a sign of peace.

In his somewhat speculative book "The Farfarers," Mowat describes the settlement of Britain by the Albans, who were later pushed north into Scotland (hence Alba) by the Picts, invading from France. Later the Picts encouraged settlement to the south by their distant cousins, the Armoricans, as a buffer between themselves and the invading Celts. Mowat mentions that the sea isles were settled by Albans retreating under Pictish pressure, but he does not mention any relationship between the Albans and the people of Ireland. Nor does he label the Albans mesolithic or neolithic, nor does he give dates for their arrival in Scotland.

Wonder of John can shed any light on this. Well, there's some fat on the fire!

Thursday, Jan 13, 2000
John writes:

I really don't think St. Ciaran was in the direct line of the Mac an t-saoirs. He died in 549 A.D., and there were later Mac an t-saoirs in 767, 773, and three hundred years later, in 1029 and 1097. I don't think there is any connection between them except for the description or title of "Mac an t-saoir."

But you might be right about the title; the O Brolchans certainly were known for their building in Derry; and St. Ciaran apparently started the construction of the Monastery of Clonmacnoise.

"The son of the artificer fell asleep [i.e., died]. that is, Cairan, 34 years old it is said, or 7 months after the construction of the monastery of Clanmacnoise was begun."

So perhaps the title was given to those who were renowned for erecting church edifices.

There are some folk traditions preserved concerning the MacIntyres of Scotland. They are said to have come from an island to the west in ships and settled in Argyle, armed with a prophecy about a white cow, which would let them know where to settle. They saw the white cow in Loarn (Argyle) and that's where their journey ended. In the earliest versions of the legend, it was just an unnamed island to the west - later Scottish historians decided the Island must have been Skye - but this is contrary to the earliest verbal traditions of the family.

It is assumed that they were MacDonnells, since they settled in their homelands in Argyle. And Hugh MacDonald claimed as much in his statement about the nephew of Somerled sticking his finger in the hole in the ship and thereby becoming known as Mac an t-Saoir. But the MacDonnells were notorious for claiming that all the families living in their territory were related; As were the Campbells, who actually forced subservient families to adopt their surname.

In the case of the Irish Mac an t-Saoirs, there are definite connections with the church in all of the cases where the description is applied. So one would assume this title had some kind of special meaning in regard to clerics. But what of the Scottish Mac an t-Saoirs? There are no particular connections with the church in evidence in this family.

There were definite marital connections between the O'Donnells of Donegal and the MacDonnells of the Isles. Domnall oge O'Donnell married both a MacDonnell and a MacSweeney (from Argyle, Scotland) and the O'Donnells later settled the MacSweeneys as gallowglasses in Donegal. Further, several later O'Donnells are nicknamed Albanach, i.e, fostered in Scotland, undoubtedly with the MacDonnells.

Frankly, the legend of the Scottish Mac an t-Saoirs sailing to Scotland from an island to the west (in the Hebrides) strikes me as more of a Viking settlement than a band of Irish Mac an t-Saoirs settling in Scotland. And what in the world does their prophecy about a white cow indicating the land in which they were to settle mean?

I won't respond further for the time being until I have a chance to find all the material I copied some time ago on the Scottish MacIntyres and re-examine it all. I want to be sure I quote all the sources correctly.

According to their web page, the MacIntyres of Scotland can't identify a single chieftain prior to about 1695. All the family records, if there ever were any, were said to be lost. Perhaps as Brian says, the was the result of the English dominating the country and destroying every Celtic manuscript they could find.

It's even possible that the MacIntyre surname in Scotland is in fact not derived from Mac an t-Saoir, but from some other Celtic name or description. But more on this later.

Thursday, Jan 13, 2000
John writes:

Here are two other possible derivations of the Scottish MacIntyre surname:

Mac Cean-tyre

Cean-tyre was the old Gaelic word now known as Kintire, the area in which the Scottish MacIntyres settled after sailing to the district of Loarn in Kintire in galleys. Tyre is the same as the Irish Tir, meaning land. I'm not sure what the Cean prefix means in this location name.

Cold is the wind across Islay Warriors of Cantire are coming They will commit a ruthless deed They will kill Mongan, son of Fiachna.

Or:

Cold is the wind across Ile, which they have at Ceann Tire; They shall commit a cruel deed in consequence, they shall kill Mongan, son of Fiachna.

The name Mac Cean Tire, when anglicized, would have dropped the C in Cean, becoming Mac EanTire, Mac Antire, or even MacIntyre.

Here's another possible derivation:

. A MacIntyre of Craignish, Malcolm, signed his name to a bond of man-rent in 1612, as "Malcolm M'Donchie Vc Intyre Vc Coshem." In this document the clan name is given as "Clanntyre Vc Coshem." And variants of the surname found in Scotland are most commonly MacTire, MacTyre, etc. But why was the clan name called Clanntyre?

The clan name translated means: children of Tyre. This form is also quite common in Ireland, ie., clann Lochlan, the children of Lochlan. In each case, the word following the clann is a personal name. So the clan name of the MacIntyres would indicate they were descended from an ancestor named "Tyre."

Tyre is not a common personal name, but MacTire occurs in both Scotland and Ireland, and means literally "son of the wolf." And Paul Mac Tire, of Clann Ross, was in some accounts, surnamed named MacTire.

The Earls of Ross received a grant of North Argyll from Alexander II in 1221; could a branch of this family, the MacTires of Clan Ross, have settled in Kintire at about this time?

If this is the case, then why would the surname take the form MacIntyre, rather than simply MacTire?

This I do not have an answer for, not being an Irish linguist. But odd things do occur in Irish names. For example, the surname McMenimen is derived from the personal name, Meanman or Menman. So it should be MacMeanman or MacMenman. But instead we find McMenimen. Where does the extra syllable come from? Could some similar process be at work here, introducing an extra syllable between the Mac and the Tire in the name MacIntyre?

All pure speculation of course at this point. But I am inclined to think the MacIntyre of Scotland surname is not derived from the Irish phrase Mac an t-Saoir. For one thing, there is no evidence of any association with the church in the history of the MacIntyres of Scotland. They were hereditary foresters under the Stewarts and the Campbells of Kintire.

Of these two possible alternate derivations for the name MacIntyre of Scotland, I personally am leaning towards the second Clan Ross derivation from MacTire. But I suggest both of these only as possibilities to be considered. There is no proof that I can find that either interpretation is correct. What do you gentlemen think?

Thursday, Jan 13, 2000
James Jr. writes:

Greetings! I agree that St. Ciaran may not be in the direct line of the McAteer's and that the name was only used for those skilled in a specific craft, or artificer (i.e., building of churches) and strong ties to the clergy.

Anyway to continue on with the topic at hand. The origin of the Gaelic name Mhac an t'Saoir has been an ongoing debate between myself and the McIntyre's. They saying it is of Scottish origin only, I saying nay. While the name does have its Scottish and Irish "roots", the origin really may never be found and to say that McAteer is only a derivation of McIntyre is a bit far fetched. I think we all agree that the first documented use of the Gaelic spelling is of Irish origin.

I thought I would quote some info (apologize if you already have this source, but thought it worth repeating for sake of debate) from a pamphlet about the McIntyre Clan (compiled by Alan McNie, 1986), it is said that the earliest traditional account as to the origin of the name (sic. "Mac-an-t'Saoir") is as follows:

"Olave the Red, King of Man, came with his fleet to a certain loch in the Western Isles, with the purpose of bringing the whole of the islands into subjection to him. Somerled, Thane of Argyll, came to the other side of the other side of the loch, and calling out Olave how he fared. Olave replied that he was well. Then Somerled said he would assist him in his expedition, if he would give him his daughter in marriage. Olave replied that he would not, but told him he would have to go with him. Somerled resolved to go with Olave, and brought his two galleys over to where Olave's ship was lying at anchor. Maurice (or Murdoch) MacNeill, Somerled's sister's son, was in Olave's company. Maurice came to Somerled and told him he would find means of getting Olave's daughter for him. In the night time Maurice bored

Olave's ship with a number of holes and plugged them with tallow. Olave, Somerled, and their followers sailed in the morning. When they had passed the point of Ardnamurchan, Olave's ship began to leak. Olave cried to help to Somerled, but Somerled would not same him unless he would consent to give him his daughter. At last, being in danger of losing his life, Olave promised, with a solemn oath, to give Somerled his daughter. Somerled then received him immediately into his galley. Maurice thereupon stopped the leaks with plugs which he had in readiness, and saved the ship from sinking. From that day he was known as the carpenter. He was the ancestor of those who call themselves "MacIntyres", or sons of the carpenter."

This story is slightly different than the MacDonald tale, or the O'Donnell tale. The interesting thing here is that the "Mac an t'Saoir" who plugged the holes was actually a MacNeill in this tale! Now we all know that the MacNeill's are descended from what is today now know as Ireland...interesting thought! Are the McIntyre's really MacNeill's, and all of this is a moot point? This would support the thought that the MacIntyre surname in Scotland is in fact not derived from Mac an t-Saoir, but from some other Celtic name or description. However, since it may appear that Mhac an t'Saoir referred to a trade, that it was in common use in the entire area of what is today Ireland and Scotland.

In reference to the white cow, the story in the pamphlet continues to say: "A descendant of his, not finding any way of making a living in his native district of Sleat, in Skye, resolved to seek his fortune elsewhere, and set sail in his galley, taking a white cow with him. Having landed in Argyllshire, near Loch Etive, he resolved that wherever the white cow would lie down to rest he would settle. This she did in Glenoe, and he built his house on the spot, which to this day is named in Gaelic, Larach na ba baine" ("the site of the White Cow")".

As a side note, I find it interesting too that the cow story has its roots with St. Ciaran. To quote: "Ciaran was born in 516, the son of a chariot maker from the area now known as Roscommon. According to the legend, Ciaran's parents were too poor to pay anything toward his education, so Ciaran asked for a cow to offer as payment. Not being able to do without their cow, his parents refused. However, as Ciaran began his journey to Clonard, a dun cow and her calf followed him. During his years at the monastery, the cow provided milk for the monks and students. Even after her dying, the cow continued to provide - it is said that her hide became the parchment on which the Lebor na h'Uidre (Book of the Dun Cow) was written."

So much for the cow for now (no "poetry" intended here!).

             My blessing on the patient cows, 
             Long life, and gentle death - and then 
             May they on heavenly meadows browse, 
             Breathing sweet breath into sweet grass, 
             Fragrance to fragrance, even as when 
             I see them daily where I pass 
             On the sweet upland pasture browse; 
             My blessing on the patient cows 


                               Seamus O'Sullivan

As far as the prophecy about a white cow indicating the land in which they were to settle is uncertain, other than maybe since white usually infers purity, that when the white cow laid down to rest that this land would pure, hence safe? Just a thought.

>From this point forward, he (descendant of MacNeill?) held land originally from the Stewarts of Lorn, later from the Campbell's of Glenurchy, etc. He did not have any sons, but three daughters who married Argyll, Sir Colin Campbell of Glenurchy, and Campbell of Otter, each of whom got the one-third of the Lordship in 1435.

John, I think your comment about the legend of the Scottish Mac an t-Saoirs sailing to Scotland from an island to the west (in the Hebrides) does strongly hint of a Viking settlement rather than a band of Irish Mac an t-Saoirs settling in Scotland, especially if the story about Olave and MacNeill is true. With regards to other variations of McIntyer, you mentioned the name Mac Cean-tyre. As you say Tir means land. I think that Cean may mean "love", "honour" hence "love or honour of the land"?

Note: when I went on-line and searched for cean info, here's what I found: ceanalta - mild, kind, so Irish; from *cen, as in cion, ++cean, love, desire.

See cion. cion.1 - love, esteem, Irish cion, cean, Middle Irish cen, Old Irish fochen, welcome; root qino-, qi, Indo-European qei,notice, as in ciall. Further, Greek @Gtimc/, honour, @Gtíw, honour, @Gtínw, pay penalty. The sense of honour and punishment is combined in the same word. See ciont.

A few other words for ceann included:

ceann nm. g.v. cinn; pl. cinn, head, end, chief, extremity ceann-bheart nm. g.v. -bheirt; pl.+an, headpiece, headgear ceann-cinnidh nm. head of a clan, chief; inflected on the first element ceann-feachd nm. general; inflected on the first element ceann-feadhna nm. chief, leader; inflected on the first element ceann-fine nm. chieftain, head of a clan; inflected on the first element ceannlaidir a. headstrong, obstinate ceannsaich va. subdue, quell, tame, conquer, keep under ceann-teagaisg nm. g.v. cinn-th-; pl. cinn-th-, subject, text ceann-uidhe nm. g.v. cinn-; pl. cinn-, end of a journey

One thought I've had is that since the McIntyre's were the keepers of the forests for the Stewarts of Lorn (if I remember correctly), then maybe McIntyre may be derived to mean "Sons who Love the Land" or "Children who Love the Land" or some other variant? I know this is stretching things a bit, but hey just some thoughts for discussion.

Well, I guess I've blathered on, so will stop here for now. I look forward to the next round of discussions!

Slan Agus Beannacth! (Gaelic for "Health and Blessings")

Friday, Jan 14, 2000
John writes:

I found this reference on a web page for the Scottish Clan Ross:

The "clan" ROSS was founded by Paul MacTire [or McIntire] starting in the C12th by uniting with the Rosses seven smaller clans or septs; namely, the Andrews, Andersons, Gillanders, MacTires, MacTears, Mac Taggart and Taggarts..

The author states here states that McIntire was simply a variant of MacTire, rather than the other way around, as is commonly supposed.

This is interesting because there is a historical Paul Mac Tire in the line of the Clan Ross, whose pedigree appears in the Gaelic MS. of 1467 and is discussed at some length by Skene in his various works on the Scottish Clans.

In this pedigree, Paul appears as "Paul Mac Tire" or Paul the son of Tire. But Alexander MacBain, says: Tyre was not his father, as usually is supposed but Mac-tire (meaing "Wolf' , a common name in his day and earlier; the name is Paul Mac-ic-Tire.

The Irish word for wolf is Mac-Tire, meaning 'son of the land.' As the author MacBain noted, it was a very common name in Ireland and presumably Scotland as well. It appears twice in the following pedigree for the Rawlinson B.502 Genealogies and in an Annal entry for 1029:

GENELACH CLAINNE COLGCAN.(Rawlinson MS)

Mac Tíre Úa h-Uallacháin m. Cuiléoin m. Conchobuir m. Meic Thíre m. h-Uallacháin m. Fogartaich m. Cumascaig m. Colgcan m. Mugróin m. Flaind Dá Chongal. 1029 Annals of the Four Masters Mac Tíre, mac Donnghaile, MacBain states the name should read: Paul Mac-ic-Tire.

The 'ic' here is a second 'mac' forming with Tire the 'son of a wolf' meaning. It really should be written Paul mac Mac-Tire, but when spoken, the second M would tend to drop out of the name, resulting in the form quoted by MacBain.

I would suggest it is possible that MacIntyre is simply a form of Mac-ic-Tire or Mac-in-Tire, as the author of the web page suggests, in shortened form, simply MacTire or MacTyre. Trying to pronounce Mac-ic-Tire would be very clumsy on the tongue - I think the name would be smoothed to Mac -In-Tire or Mac -an-Tire in spoken language.

In looking at a clan map of Scotland, the lands of the Clan Ross were far to the north of Kintire in Argyle, making a descent from this historical Paul Mac Tire doubtfull, unless one takes into account the fact that the Clan Ross were granted lands in northern Argylle in 1225 by Alexander II.

But this possibility does not gibe with their legendary history of leaving an island to the west and sailing to Kintire in galleys with a white cow aboard. Frankly, this legendary history smacks of the truth to me: it's clear, straightforward and unembellished. They could therefore have been Vikings - or native Gaels fleeing from the Vikings, as some versions of the tale suggest.

The various histories of Sumerled suggest that the native Scots or Gaels were forced to take refuge in Kintire from the Vikings, who quickly gained control of all the islands from Mann to the Hebrides. This was the ancestral seat of the MacDonalds, and probably their only stronghold in Scotland which they were able to defend against the Vikings with any success.

So I do think it's possible the Scottish surname MacIntyre was in reality a form of Mac-ic-Tire. Or from their clan name, ClanTyre, perhaps simply MacTire. But the Mac-ic-Tire form seems to explain the MacIntyre variant much better than MacTire alone. I don't think the family neccessarily had to be in descent from the historical Paul Mac-ic-Tire of Clan Ross. But the name may have originated from a similar source - an ancestor named Mac-Tire.

The Irish surname, on the other hand, is well-established in the Annal enties of 1268 and 1288 as Mac an t-Saoir (Michael Mac an t-Saoir, archbishop of Armagh and Clogher in Tyrone). It was common practice condoned by the church for priests and clergy to marry and have families at this period in Irish History. The Gallaghers and McMenimens of Donegal both had married priests and Bishops in their family trees; so although we don't have a pedigree for this Michael Mac an t-Saoir, it is certainly possible he was an ancestor of the MacAteers of Donegal and Tryone.

Frankly, I don't buy Hugh MacDonald's tale of the Maurice MacNeill saving Olav's ship for a second. Hugh was writing in the 16th century, with few or no authentic source records or histories to go by. The Scottish writers of the period were busily concocting fabulous histories for their clans, linking them to Norman families in France, to famous Viking adventurers, and even to King Arthur of the Round Table (the Campbells). What they didn't know, they invented. The MacDonalds have a tale of their ancestor Somerled going to Ireland and meeting with the Maguires, Lords of Fermanagh, and remote kinsmen thanks to a shared descent with the three Collas. Somerled died in 1164 and the Maguires did not even come into power in Fermanagh into the early 1200's, so this entire episode smacks of invention. The MacDonalds also claim the MacDonnells of Clan Kelly in Fermanagh were their descendants, when in fact there is no connection between the two families. They also claim the name of their ancestor Gilla-Adhomnain, appears on a stone cross in Co. Sligo in Ireland, which is another silly claim (The Red Book of Clanranald).

Jim - I suspect Cean-Tire or Kintire may have the other meaning you posted of head, or extremity, combined with Tir for land, or headland. Kintire is a peninsula which juts out into the ocean from Scotland, so headland might be appropriate. We should be able to find out the meaning of Kintire somewhere on the internet, though, I would think. Or there are some books on Scottish place names in the library here which I can check next week.

I have a copy of the Hugh MacDonald tale of the wright Maurice MacNeill if anyone would like a copy. There is a twist to this tale not referred to on most MacIntyre web sites.

After the story of the sinking ship and the wright, Hugh goes on to relate the various exploits of Somerled until his death in 1164. He was killed, Hugh informs us, by his nephew Maurice Mac Neill, who slipped into his tent and ran him through with a sword, then escaped into the night. This is of course the very same Maurice mac Neill who helped Somerled win Olav's wife earlier in the tale.

Conventional tales of Somerled's death know nothing of this traitor Maurice Mac Neill, Somerled's nephew. They have him slain in battle along with a son, I think in Galloway. This is just another example of Hugh MacDonald's tendancy to make up history as he went along.

Friday, Jan 14, 2000
John writes:

Has anyone else noticed that the coat of arms for MacIntyre and MacDonald have exactly the same elements but in different places?

A hand holding a cross A Norse Galley or ship A eagle or a fierce bird of some kind.

It would seem as though the MacIntyres of Scotland were claiming a descent from the MacDonalds with this coat of arms. But whether this really means anything would probably depend on when the arms were adapted. Or did Scottish septs routinely adapt the insignia of the Lords under whom they lived?

If the arms were adapted by the MacIntyres after the 15th century (or when Hugh MacDonald's history became well known) I would have to say this didn't mean anything. But if they were of long-standing use, say from the 13th or 14th century, then it might have some significance.

But I don't know anything about Scottish arms. Maybe one of you could shine some light on the subject.

The O'Donnells of Donegal's arms also feature a hand holding a cross - and this is a clan emblem of ancient usage. The hand faces the other way but I'm not sure that means too much. There is a legend associated with their clan arms, that St. Patrick placed a cross on their ancestor's shield (Conal Gulban) and the image was burned into his shield.

Brian - you have suggested that the MacDonnells of Scotland and the O'Donnells of Donegal might be the same family. I wonder ....The pedigrees say differently but then the Irish seanachies were awful liars at times.

The Kingship of Tirconnell or Donegal was held by two families for centuries, the O Cananains and the O Muldoraighs; then suddenly in around 1180 A.D., the O'Donnells came out of nowhere to claim the kingship of Tirconnell. This was just slightly after the heyday of Somerled, the ancestor of the MacDonalds, in Scotland. Shortly after 1200 A.D., we find Domnall oge O'Donnell marrying a MacDonald of the Isles and a Mac Suibhne from Kintire. And later the Mac Suibhne gallowglasses were settled in Donegal under the O''Donnells.

Brian once mentioned he had an informant which told him he saw a version of the ship and wright story of the MacIntyres which featured an O'Donnell instead of a MacDonald. I sure wish I could find a copy of that tale - every version I've seen was a MacDonald, i.e, Somerled, and his nephew, Maurice.

Sometimes you have to wonder though...

Uaine,
Web-leprechaun.

Saturday, Jan 15, 2000
John writes:

History of the MacDonalds Hugh MacDonald

"After this, Olay, surnamed the Red, King of Man, Isla, Mull and Isles southward of the point of Ardnamurchan, came with his fleet to Loch Stornua in order to subdue all the Isles south and north, pretending his right from the King of Denmark, to whom the ancient Danes north of Ardnamurchan refused allegiance; and, as Olay encamped at Loch Stornua, Somerled came to the other side of the loch, and cried out, if Olay was there, and how he fared? Olay replied, that he was well. Then said Somerled, I come from Somerled, Thane of Argyle, who promises to assist you conditionally in your expedition, provided you bestow your daughter on him. Olay answered, that he would not give him his daughter, and that he knew that he himself was the man; but that he and his men should follow him in his expedition. So Somerled resolved to follow Olay.

"There was at that time a foster brother of Olay's, one Maurice MacNeill, in Olay's company, who was a near friend of Somerled; and when Somerled brought his two galleys near the place where Olay's ship lay, this Maurice aforesaid came where he was, and said that he would find means by which he might come to get Olay's daughter. So, in the night time, he bored Olay's ship under water with many holes, and made a pin for each hole, overlaying them with tallow and butter.

"When they were up in the morning and set to sea, after passing the point of Ardnamurchan, Olay's ship sprung a leak, casting the tallow and butter out of the holes by the ship tossing on the waves, and beginning to sink, Olay and his men cried for help to Somerled. Maurice replied, that Somerled would not save him unless he bestowed his daughter upon him. At last, Olay being in danger of his life, confirmed by an oath that he would give his daughter to Somerled, who received him immediately into his galley. Maurice went into Olay's galley, and fixed the pins in the holes, which he had formerly prepared for them, and by these means they landed in safety. From that time the posterity of Maurice are called MacIntyres (or wright's sons) to this day.

"The messenger returned with this answer to the king, whose party was not altogether bent upon joining battle with Somerled, neither did the king look much after his ruin, but, as the most of kings are commonly led by their councillors, the king himself being young, they contrived Somerled's death in another manner. There was a nephew of Somerled's, Maurice MacNeill, his sister's son, who was bribed to destroy him. Somerled lay encampted at the confluence of the river Pasley into Clyde. His nephew taking a little boat, went over the river and having got private audience of him, being suspected by none, stabbed him, and made his escape.

"The rest of Somerled's men hearing the death and tragedy of their leader and master, betook themselves to their galleys. The king coming to view the corpse, one of his followers, with his foot, did hit it. Maurice being present said that though he had done the first thing most villainously and against his conscience, that he was unworthy and base so to do; and withal drew his long scian, stabbed him, and escaped by swimming over to the other side of the river, receiving his remission from the king thereafter, with the lands which were formerly promised him. The king sent a boat with the corpse of Somerled to Icollumkill at his own charges. This is the report of twenty writers in Icollumkill, before Hector Boetius and Buchanan were born.

The King referred to in this last section was Malcolm, King of Scotland. King Malcolm, on attaining to manhood, decided to rid the Isles of Somerled, to divide his possessions among his nobles. Somerled, hearing of this plan, came to Greenoch and the King Malcolm came to Glasgow to give battle to Somerled, who marched up the side of the Clyde. The King told Somerled he could retain possession of Isles, which were his from his mother. But the King wanted Argyle and Kintire for himself. Then his councillors came up with the plan to have Somerled slain by a traitor (Maurice MacNeill).

This tale is interesting for several reasons. First we learn that Maurice MacNeill was a foster-brother of Olay's (King Olave of Mann) and a near friend of Somerled's. Then later in the tale we again encounter this same Maurice MacNeill, with the further information that he was the son of Somerled's sister (who must have married a MacNeill).

Lastly, Hugh MacDonald states that King Malcolm rewarded Maurice MacNeill for his treachery in slaying Somerled with the lands that were formerly promised to him. And we know from the story that the lands King Malcolm wanted to seize from Somerled were the lands of Argyle and Kintire.

Jim - you mentioned that you thought this Maurice was a MacNeill. I now think so too. The main and oldest branch were the MacNeills of Barra - but the MacNeills were in possession of Castle Sween in Knapdale in Argyle in the 1300's; apparently they later picked up their possessions on the island of Barra and Gigha. They claim an ancestry common to several other Argyle clans, including the MacLachlans, the MacEwens of Otter, the MacSweens of Castle Sween, and the MacSorleys of Moneydrain. Could this be how and when the MacIntyres picked up their lands in Kintire?

On the MacIntyres web pages, Maurice is called Macarill, or Maurice. Only the name Maurice appears in Hugh MacDonald's story; Does anyone know what source the Macarill name appears in?

The reason I ask is that MacArill does not appear to be a form of Maurice. In Irish, this is usually the anglicized from of Muiris; and it's largely a Norman name. The Irish names Muirchertach and Muirdoch are also occasionally rendered "Maurice" by older writers; but I've never encountered the form MacArill before.

This name in fact appears to be a name similar to MacTire or 'son of the wolf', or to MacIntyre.

Mac (son of) An rill. or Mac Arill Mac an t-Saoir Mac (son of) Ic-Tire (wolf)

I know these two names are really not in least similar; but I am struck by the 'Maca' in the name Macarill. This would really be Mac an Rill or Mac Arill or something similar, which is at least similar to the Mac an form found in MacIntyre and MacAteer.(Mac an t-Saoir).

Whatever this name is, it certainly is not Maurice. It might be interesting to try and locate the original document in which this name appears, to see what it really is.

Last but not least, the MacNeills of Barra, MacLachlans, MacSweens, etc. all claim a descent from the O'Neills of Ulster, from an ancestor named Anrothan. There is, however, an alternate pedigree in the Gaelic MS. 1467 which has Anrothan descend from the same stock as Somerled and the MacDonalds. For any number of reasons, this descent makes a lot more sense for all of these families, and in particular for Maurice MacNeill, the son of Somerled's sister, and a foster brother to King Olave of the Isle of Mann.

Saturday, Jan 15, 2000
John writes:

I forgot about another MacNeill passage in the text, "Of Godfrey descended a branch of the MacDonalds in North Uist, called Shiol Ghiorry, or Godfrey's offspring. He had from his father a large portion of land, as North Uist, Benbicula, the one half of South Uist, Boysdale, Canna, Slate, and Knoydart. It was he gave Boisdale to MacNeill of Barra...."

This passage is describing Godfrey the son of John , Lord of the Isles, some generations removed from Somerled.

It can be argued that the name Maurice MacNeill in Hugh MacDonald's history meant simply Maurice the son of Neill (and not the surname, MacNeill). But from this reference to MacNeills as a surname a few generations later it appears this is what was intended in the Maurice MacNeill reference, i.e., that is was the surname MacNeill.

If this turns out to be correct, then Jim deserves the credit for spotting it. I'd always assumed the reference was not a surname, simply meaning Maurice the son of Neill. It appears I was wrong.

There's a pedigree for the MacNeills in descent from the O'Neills of Ulster on this web page. I've seen this before; and there is no documentation whatsoever for the pedigree. But who knows? As I recall, it was taken from the oral testimony of two old MacNeill fishermen who had it committed to memory in the late 1800's.

Clan MacNeil in Canada History - Clan Chiefs

Saturday, Jan 15, 2000
John writes:

Sorry about all these messages, but things keep occurring to me:

I suspect the name MacArill is a highly corrupted from of Mac Torquill. Torquill is a very common name among the MacNeills; in fact one of the founders of one of their branches bore the name. See their web page for documentation.

And there are at least some similarities between the name Mac Torquill and Mac Tire, although admittedly they are superficial at this point. I wonder though if the name MacIntyre might be a gaelicised version of Mac Torquill? Like MacTire, this name may have taken the form as a surname:

Mac-Ic-Torquill.

I'm not sure what Torquill meant in the Norse language. Perhaps this wouldn't work at all as a Mac mac name.

Saturday, Jan 15, 2000
Peter writes:

I'm glad that I got picked up by one of you in regards to 'the debate'. Seems like good timing on someone's part. I really enjoyed looking at your site as well the other week and seeing all these facts and thoughts on the name. I wish some more people on the McIntyre sides would look at the past with as much gusto and depth as you guys are.

I've had the odd discussion or email with a few Scottish McIn or MacIntyres, but as soon as they figure out that all my family came from Ireland, they quickly lose interest. Once or twice I got a very strong response that the McIntyres have nothing to do with Ireland. I didn't object to his opinion, but I still wonder how he came to have such an opinion.

Last week I found a McIntyre who had been searching for a long time in Scotland, with no success. There was a place name she had which I'm sure was in Ireland. She is now on another path of research, and probably on the right path now.

I noticed also that there is no McAteer ROOTSWEB mailing list. Is this catered for by the McTeer list. I'd like to put that on my website as well (the ROOTSWEB links). I even thought of taking control of the McAteer lists if nobody was doing it. The McIntyre list was very sleepy but I'm trying to get more members. I welcome any McAteers to that list, but I detect a bit of pride in spelling variations. Even my own variation. I started the McEntyre ROOTSWEB mailing list a few weeks ago. I urge all members to belong to the McIntyre list though as it has more members. The McEntyre list will be a recruiting list for the McIntyre list. Currently there are no members on the McEntyre list and 73 on the McIntyre list. I made a bold target of getting 500 members on the McIntyre list by the end of the year.

A foolish goal in hindsight, but one I won't give up on at this stage of the year. I'm sure I can get a lot more people. Nobody knows about the list yet. As far as debating the name, the McIntyre list might be a good place for you all to join as well. (ALL McAteers) I'm sure if done properly we can convince a lot of them that Scotland is not the one and only place where McIntyres came from. Just by having a presence on the list will be enough to open a few minds.

I sent an invitation to the McIntyre Clan sites to join the ROOTSWEB McIntyre list and use it as a way of communicating with McIntyres, but nobody responded. They may already be members, but I don't know for sure.

As a finishing note, all spelling variations in this email bare no weight of authority whatsoever.

The Japanese spell my name.

Matsukentaia or Matskentaiya.

So add that to your data base.

Sunday, Jan 16, 2000
John writes:

The Book of Clanranald has the following statement included in a pedigree of the MacDonalds:

"It is from this Giolla Oghamhnan descended the Clann Domhnaill of Ros Laogh, from a brother of Giolla Bride, son of Giolla Oghamhnan..."

The is Giolla Oghamhnan, father of Giolla Brigde, and grandfather of Somerled, the ancestor of the MacDonalds and MacDougals. Ros Laogh means promontory of the cow or calf.

The MacIntyre web page has a discussion of a location known as the Clach an Laoigh Bhiata, or stone of the White calf in Glen Noe, the homeland of the MacIntyres. I suspect both of these locations are the same place, with slightly different names, perhaps having changed over the centuries.

If this is the case, then the Book of Clanranald is stating that a brother of Giolla Brigde, father of Somerled, was the ancestor of the Clann Domhnall of Glen Noe and vicinity, and by implication, the MacIntyres of Glen Noe.

I suspect this also explains the legend of the white cow in the history of the MacIntyres. This was probably an after the fact prophecy, dreamed up after the MacIntyres had settled in Glen Noe, near a promontory that had a rock in the shape of a white cow. This type of after the fact prophecy is extremely common in Irish mythology as well.

The fact that Hugh MacDonald described the descendants of this brother of Giolla Brigde as "clann Domhnall" would not mean their surname was MacDonald. In fact, it's an error in usage. The Domhnall in the MacDonald pedigree from whom the 'clan Domhnall' designation was taken was a great-grandson of Giolla Brigde. Any descendant not of this line should not have been described as 'Clann Domhnall".

The Book of Clanranald only states that Somerled was "slain by his page, who took his head to the king, in the year of our Lord 1180 (1164)." It does not mention a Maurice MacNeill or a Macarill.

A Manx web site had the following: Mac Thorquill, now MacCorkle. This is so close to the "Macarill' spelling that I now have no doubt that Mac Thorquill was the original form of the name Maurice in Hugh MacDonald's history. It's a bit of a jumble, since Macarill MacNeill would result in "Mac Thorquill macNeill,' but perhaps what was intended was simply Thorquill MacNeill.

I suspect the "Thor" element in this name is what the 'Clann Tyre'' name for the MacIntyres of Scotland is based on. (Tor, Tire, Tyre, etc.)

Monday, Jan 17, 2000
James Jr. writes:

Greetings Brian! You're thoughts were interesting reading in you last e-mail in the "debate". I agree, in part that your statement that the "The McAteer's and the MacIntyre's are today so intermixed, there will be no separating them..." and "Now the distribution of the McAteer's and MacIntyre's and the similarity of the Gaelic names, suggests to me that they are the same people", however, there is, in my opinion, a slightly bigger picture here that needs to be addressed. . . . I think that some of the discussions (past and present) concerning the origin of the names (McAteer and McIntyre) are worthwhile for documenting the uncertainties in organ of our name (Irish and Scottish). This, in conjunction, with the historical facts that today's Scots are really derived from those who settled the area from what is today now known as Ireland speaks for itself. For instance, you comment that "For the Scots to deny descent from the Irish flies in the face of reality" is a very true statement, but they do this none-the-less!

Tuesday, Jan 18, 2000
John writes:

I'm not so sure that the Scots do refuse to acknowledge a descent from the Irish, Brian. The MacDonalds claim a descent from Colla Uais, one of the three Collas in Ireland- and the MacNeills, MacLachlans, MacSweeneys, MacEwens, et al claim a descent from the O'Neills of Ulster. The pedigrees of most of the other Scottish clans are deduced from the royal line of the Dal Riata of northern Ireland. A handful of Scottish clans claim a descent from the Norse; and a few claim descent from Norman or Welsh lines.

But where oh where in all these descents from Ireland are the Picts or Cruithins of Scotland? One would imagine they didn't exist - but they were the original inhabitants of both Scotland and northern Ireland. Today not a single Scottish clan claims an origin from the Picts - when in fact, most of them probably were Picts.

According to O'Rahilly, the original inhabitants of both Scotland and northern Ireland were the Picts, Cruithin, or Cruithne of Irish mythology. They were one and the same people linguistically and culturally. When the Kings of the Dal Riata in Ireland moved their kingdom to Scotland in the 6th century to escape from the pressure of the sons of Nial 'of the Nine Hostages', they were simply 'returning' to their own people, the Picts.

According to William Skene (quoting an early 16th century letter from John Elder) the Scottish clans at that time considered themselves Redshanks or Picts, the native inhabitants of the Scottish highlands. Elder was upset because he said the churchmen of Scotland were trying to force them to accept the "Irish" version of their descent from various Irish mythological kings, which they firmly rejected. But a few centuries later, that is indeed what we find: the Scottish clans mostly claiming a descent from Irish mythological kings such as Conn of the Hundred Battles.

There was no doubt constant contact between the Picts of Ireland and the Picts of Scotland. The Senchus Fer nAlban states that the Airgialla (i.e, Oriel of Ireland) were required to furnish men of arms to the Kings of the Dal Riata in Scotland. And in later centuries there were constant intermarriages between the Irish, the Norse, and the Scottish clans.

Angus oge MacDonnell married an O'Cathain, and according to the Book of Clanranald, brought with her twenty and four sons of chieftains, who married and became twenty and four families of Scotland. Who were these families in descent from the O Cathains of Londonderry County in Ireland? No one knows today. And of course the O'Donnells had long and numerous connections with the MacDonald Kings of the Isles.

But to assume that a given surname must have originated in only one place and then been transferred across sea to Scotland or Ireland is an assumption I am not prepared to make. Take the surname McLaughlin in Ireland. We can document at least four different, completely unrelated septs in Ireland who assumed this surname, based on ancestors of the same name. And there is another McLaughlin sept in Scotland (MacLachlan) in turn related to none of the Irish families. It would be a gross oversimplification to try and lump all of these different McLaughlin families into one common origin. This is true for many Irish families. There are many O Murphy families in Ireland, none of them related to the other. There are several O'Neill families, none of which are related to the O'Neills of Ulster. The list goes on and on.

So I cannot assume anything. The fact that an Irish family assumed the surname Mac an t-Saoir does not mean that a family of Scottish descent with the same surname must necessarily be related in some way.

I would suggest that the burden of proof is on those who insist the surnames must have been derived from the same family. The assumption should be the other way around - that the names were derived independently at different times and for different reasons by different families. Because the entire history of surnames in Ireland indicates this was the norm - not the exception.

In Ireland, some surnames were corrupted into other surnames when they were anglicized into English forms. The O Maoilseachlainns were Kings of Meath, and their surname was at first anglicized to O'Melaghlin, which is proper. But in the 1600's members of the sept started calling them "MacLoughlin." So we have two identical surnames with two dissimilar origins.

Scottish surnames are a particular mess because there are almost no records whatsoever prior to 1200 A.D., and precious few after that, except for the major families who received grants from the Kings. There is exactly one pedigree source for Scottish clans which makes them all (with a few exceptions) descend from Irish Kings. This is the very thing John Elder was raving about in the 1500's; the Irish seanachies tried to make all the Picts of Ireland descended from the Irish.

From about 800 A.D. to well into the 1200's, the Scots were under constant pressure from the Norse, who routinely sacked their monasteries and burned their castles. The Scots intermarried with these Norse invaders and became the hybrid race Skene terms the Gall-Gaedhel. There's little wonder they have few manuscripts or historical sources dating from these turbulent centuries. The Scottish monarchy and the seats of learning were far from the western Isles of Scotland and unconcerned with the doings and history of such as Somerled, King of the Western Isles, who owed no allegiance to the Scottish Kings since he had acquired his lands through connections with the Norse Kings of Mann.

There are many, many historians who think Somerled and the MacDonalds were primarily Norse in origin, and this statement would include nearly all of the families thought to be related to the MacDonalds, such as the MacIntyres, the MacDougals, the MacAlisters, and most of the families of Kintire, Knapdale and Cowal in Argyle. One would have an even more difficult time in positing a relationship between an Irish surname and one that sprang up from Norse roots.

Historians have been arguing over the descent of Somerled for generations; and probably always will because there are no records which definitely prove his family was Norse or Scottish or whatever term you chose to employ. Whatever the truth is, it's buried in the mists of history. So all we can do is pry around the edges a bit to see what we can find.

Wednesday, Jan 19, 2000
John writes:

As all of you know, I've been trying to find an alternate derivation for the name MacIntyre since I haven't yet seen any hard evidence that there was any kind of connection with St. Ciaran or the description Mac an t-Saoir in Scotland, as we've uncovered in Ireland. Hence my questioning whether the surname was instead derived from the MacTires, Mac Torquills, or some other Scottish source.

Well, that's changed.

St. Ciaran of Clonmacnoise was definitely associated with the area around Campbeltown in Kintire, and several place-names in the area were named after him.

"Campbeltown" - Originally known as Kilkerran, and later as Kinlochkerran, as the landing place of the Irish St. Ciaran or Ciarn (6th century), a forerunner of Columba, the town takes its name from the Campbells of Argyll, to whom James V transferred it from the MacDonalds.

>From Campbeltown to the Mull of Kintyre.

As far as Southbend there are two roads: an inland road, 9 1/2 miles, diverging from the Machrihanish road and leading S. through Conle Glen, and a more interesting, but very much hillier coast road, 13 1/2 miles - following the latter we reach Kilkerran, named after St. Kieran, the 6th century missionary. The ruined castle near the shore was intended by James V to over awe the MacDonalds, who, however, captured it and hanged the governor before the king was well out of sight. About 1 1/2 mile farther on a spit of gravel offers a passage dryshod at low tide to Davaar Island, on the E. side of which is a cave with a modern Crucifixion painted on its wall. - At 4 1/2 miles Achinhoan Head is St. Kieran's Cave, 25 ft. above high water and difficult of access, which recent interesting discoveries tend to identify as perhaps the earliest Christian chapel in Scotland.

From the Highland Papers

"Saidill upon the same syde is the Logh of Kilkerrane, it is two mylls long and one myll breadth of salt water."

"On the south side of this Logh, there is a Church which is called Kilkearrane, and ane ancient castle which K. James the fourth builded."

Kintyre is in Adamnan 'Caput Regionis', a literal translation of Ceann Tire. Columba, when visiting Kintyre, spoke with the captain and crew of a ship newly arrived from Gallia (France); the most likely place for the incident would be Ceann Loch Cille Chiarain, 'Head of St. Ciaran's Loch, now Cambeltown.

The Ciaran who is commemorated in Scotland is probably Ciaran of Cluain mac Nois, styled 'Mac in t-Sair,' Sept. 9, who died in 549 A.D. In the west there are Cill Chiarain, Kilchieran or Kilcherran, near Kilchoman in Islay, in Lismore, and in Kintyre, where Kilkerran was the old name of Campbeltown parish; the site of the town is Ceann Loch Cille Chiarain. There was a church os St. Ciaran at Lianishader in Barvas, Lewis. Caibeal Chiarain, his chapel, is at the north-east end of Loch Awe. In the east, Caibeal Chiarain once stood on Boreland farm, Loch Tay, near the gate of the road to the farm-house, and a meadow there is called Dail Chiarain. Another Dail Chiarain is on Duneaves, between Duneaves House and the river Lyon. The saint is also connected with Fetteresso in Forfarshire, and his well was in Glenbervie. He had also a chapel in Strathmore in Caithness.

In addition to these, current maps of the area around Campbeltown show a Glen Kerran.

In a life of St. Ciarain, the saint first lived in the monastery of S. Nennid, in an island off Lough Erne in Ireland. He then went to the great monastery of the Isle of Arran, where he spent seven years, the moved to Inniscathig. He then proceeded to an island of Lough Rie, called Aingin, where he erected a monastery, before retiring to Clonmacnoise.

The island of Arran is off the coast of Kintire - so this may account for some of the legends regarding St. Ciarain in Kintire. I'm not sure where Inniscathig or Lough Rie are.

This life of St. Ciarain also has the following statement: "S. Kieran did not long survive the foundation of clonmacnoise, as he fell sick of a pestilence which raged in the year 549, and which carried him off, some say at the early age of thirty-three; and from the fact of his being a carpenter's son, and of having died at the same age as Christ, it was thought that the resemblance between the saint and his Lord was remarkable."

Does this passage have a bearing on the meaning of the descriptive phrase, Mac an t-Saoir as it is applied to a limited number of individuals in the Irish Annals?

So we have placed locations in Kintire connected in legend to St. Ciarain Mac an t-Saoir. Would anyone care to speculate on possible connections with the MacIntyres?

We might note that this new material in no way changes my mind about the derivation of the name Macarill as it appears in Hugh MacDonalds History of the family. It is still in my opinion derived from Mac Torquill. And the MacIntire legend of the white cow is probably derived from the white cow stone visible from their homelands in Kintire.

'Caput Regionis' is head region in Latin, or perhaps head of the region. It does substantiate the suggestion that Kintire (Ceann Tire) means 'head - land".

Wednesday, Jan 19, 2000
James Jr. writes:

John, your last e-mail was very interesting indeed. I am not convinced of any possible connections with the Clan MacIntyre. I think some of the other possible sources we have previously discussed may hold more truth such as being derived from Mac Torquill as you state, or Ceann Tire.

I am pretty convinced at this point that Mac an t-Saoir was a term that was pretty specific to religious origin in its early usage and then became a surname.

I am still not sure about St. Ciaran of Clonmacnoise (in person that is) as being definitely in the area around Campbeltown in Kintire. It is interesting that reference to him (?) and several place-names in the area having implication to St. Ciaran. I am curious where you got the information that Campbeltown was the landing place of the Irish St. Ciaran or Ciarn (6th century).

This information about St. Kieran's Cave is very interesting, but can we really say with certainty that he was there? Also, I think the reference to the Isle of Arran may be incorrect. Below is some info to think about.

>From Catholic Online: St. Kieran Feastday: September 9

"St. Kieran was born in Connacht, Ireland. He was the son of Beoit, a carpenter. He studied at St. Finnian's school at Clonard and taught the daughter of the king of Cuala, as he was considered the most learned monk at Clonard. Kieran spent seven years at Inishmore on Aran with St. Enda and then went to a monastery in the center of Ireland called Isel. Forced to leave by the monks because of what they considered his excessive charity, he spent some time on Inis Aingin (Hare Island) and with eight companions, migrated to a spot on the bank of the Shannon river in Offaly, where he built a monastery that became the famous Clonmacnois , renowned for centuries as the great center of Irish learning, and was its Abbot. Many extravagant miracles and tales are told of Kieran, who is one of the twelve apostles of Ireland. He is often called St. Kieran the Younger to distinguish him from St. Kieran of Saighir. His feast day is September 9."

Another reference on St. Ciaran (can't remember the source) says: "One of the three major monastic communities in Ireland, Clonmacnois became "by the time of Charlemagne, one of the most illustrious seats of learning in the Christian world, the center of Irish art and literature.

On the banks of the River Shannon, in County Offaly, lie the ruins of the once-thriving monastic community of Clonmacnois. Today, only a handful of the original 105 structures are standing.

Ciaran was born in 516, the son of a chariot-maker from the area now known as Roscommon. According to the legend, Ciaran's parents were too poor to pay anything toward his education, so Ciaran asked for a cow to offer as payment. Not being able to do without their cow, his parents refused.

However, as Ciaran began his journey to Clonard, a dun cow and her calf followed him. During his years at the monastery, the cow provided milk for the monks and students. Even after her dying, the cow continued to provide - it is said that her hide became the parchment on which the Lebor na h'Uidre (Book of the Dun Cow) was written. It is one of the two oldest surviving manuscripts - a compilation of stories, poems, genealogy, and history in the vernacular.

After some years at Clonard, Ciaran traveled to the remote islands of Aran.

He was convinced to establish a church in the middle of Ireland. He chose his site of the River Shannon. Ciaran liven only seven months after the founding of Clonmacnois, dying at the age of 33 of the yellow plague, which swept over Ireland in 549."

I am pretty confident these passages refer to the Aran islands that are off the west coast of Ireland, not the Isle of Arran that is between Ireland and Scotland. St. Ciaran spent the 7 yrs. studying with St. Enda who had his monastery on Inishmore (one of the islands of the set referred to as Aran Islands off western Ireland). I see that in the early Irish language the Islands of Aran would be "Oileain Arainn", or Island(s) (Isle/s/?) of Aran. It is interesting that we have two sets of similar names, one off the west coast of Ireland and the other between Ireland and Kintire. I wonder why that is?

John given some of the info stated above I think the reference to "The island of Arran is off the coast of Kintire - so this may account for some of the legends regarding St. Ciarian in Kintire" may not be entirely accurate despite some of the info you found about St. Ciaran in Scotland. Do you thing it is possible that these references may be referring to another St. Ciaran or references that may have been made to him by others like Columba? Since no dates are referred to in you discussions, are there any?

With respect to some of the other information you presented, I too could not find "Inniscathig" on my maps, however, I will keep looking. I do see that Lough Erne is in Northern Ireland (County Fermanagh) and is located SE of the city of Donegal. Lough Rie I believe is actually Lough Ree (into and out of which the River Shannon runs) which to its south is Clanmacnois. The track of locations would then make sense with St. Ciaran settling in Clanmacnois. John, I am very curious about your discussion of "From Campbeltown to the Mull of Kintyre" where you mention that at Achinhoan Head is St. Kieran's Cave and that recent interesting discoveries tend to identify as perhaps the earliest Christian chapel in Scotland. I would like to see this source. Can you please send this reference (and others that you have been referring to during our recent exchanges?

I wonder if can be possible that since history that it was near the Mull of Kintyre that St. Columba arrived from Ireland in 574 AD (not too long after the death of St. Ciaran), bringing Christianity to Scotland that maybe St. Columba honored St. Ciaran by using his name in areas that may became place-names, etc?

I also found a reference to St. Ciaran's Cave at http://www.kintyre-scotland.org.uk/page15.html and it states:

"St. CIARAN's CAVE- Auchenhoan Head Campbeltown - NR 745185 One can reach this site at low tide only, so please check with Campbeltown TIC. This is a deep cave, traditionally connected with St. Ciaran, the Abbot of Clorunacnols. The cave contains a stone trough positioned to act as a catchment point for water from the roof, and also a boulder with a carved marigold pattern, and a sandstone slab."

I do not know what "Clorunacnols" means (is this another variant spelling of Clanmacnois?). I have searched for hours on the net, but came up with nothing. So where/what/who is the Abbot of Clorunacnols? It could not possibly have referred to St. Ciaran of Clanmacnois because he never left Clanmacnois once he founded it and supposedly died very shortly its founding. So how does this reference relate to him? Any ideas? (Geez, there's always something new to ponder isn't there?)

Does it really seem likely that the St. Ciaran of Clonmacnois we talk about really was able to travel from Connacht, to study at St. Finnian's school at Clonard, spend seven years at Inishmore on Aran with St. Enda, go to a monastery in the center of Ireland called Isel, spend some time on Inis Aingin (Hare Island), live in the monastery of St.Nennid on an island off Lough Erne(note - see comment below on this reference), go to Inniscathig, proceed to an island of Lough Ree (Aingin) where he erected a monastery, and finally retire to Clonmacnoise and then somewhere in between all these travels go to Kintire, Barvas, and all of the other locations is Scotland?

I find it very hard to believe someone who purportedly died at 33 years of age could travel such great distances in such a short life span, but I guess anything is possible, especially if he was so "Christ-like." side note: reference to the "saint first living in the monastery of S. Nennid, in an island off Lough Erne in Ireland" may not be incorrect. I have a source states that while Ciaran was studying with Finian at Clonard a lad by the name of Ninnid (the slat eyed) of Loch Erne, seeking knowledge for which his soul yearned, came to the big school. The great-hearted Finian had spoken with him, and accepted, and enrolled the shy little fellow from Loch Erne...." The story goes on to say that he was told to seek among those at Clonard for a book to borrow. He eventually found Ciaran, the son of the Carpenter, who was reading verse of Matthew in the bible and gave Ninnid his book. When this story came to Finian, he proudly said to the students that "Not Ciaran half-Matthew will he be, but Ciaran half-Ireland."

Also, I have found a reference stating that shortly before his birth, Ciaran's mother came to visit a holy bishop, who, when hearing the roll her approaching chariot said: "it is the noise of a chariot under a king. And he shall be a mighty king. As the sun shineth among the stars of heaven, so shall he shed on earth miracles and marvels that can not be told." A footnote to this little passage says that while "Ciaran was sowing seed at Iseal-Chiarain..."

The interest here is the name 'Iseal-Chiarain', which is similar to some of the references in John's message. Can it be that the tale of Ciaran was "adopted" in the areas of Scotland to say he was there to influence Christianity in those locals by Columba and others that followed? Just a thought.

Lastly, maybe the reference you make to St. Ciaran being a carpenter's son, and of having died at the same age as Christ and that the resemblance between the him and Jesus, etc. may have some bearing on the meaning of the descriptive phrase Mac an t-Saoir as it is applied to a limited number of individuals (who were all religious folks it appears in the beginning)in the Irish Annals. This would seem to also support the translation of Mhac an t'Saoir as son of the artificer (skilled or artistic worker or craftsman; one that makes; deviser) or carpenter.

Well, I guess I have rambled on enough for now. I apologize if I have gotten a little side-tracked here and there.

Look forward to future exchanges (maybe from others in this mailing list??...hint, hint)....ttyl...

Slan agus beannaght

Wednesday, Jan 19, 2000
Brian writes:

Your observations on the Scots admitting Irish descent come as news. Any reference material I have here on the Scots was sparse on origins, and I only came to that conclusion after reading a dozen or so clan sketches, so it is firmly based in ignorance!

Your point about the Picts being suspiciously absent from family histories is a good one. It has already been pointed out that the invading Irish may have been closely related to the Picts, and the absence of much mention of war or resistance to the invasion supports that. Perhaps the Picts welcomed the arrival of support against the Vikings, and the Romanized Britons.

So why were the Picts not mentioned? Is it possible that most of the tribes existed on both sides of the Irish sea, and that the Irish invasion was really just a home-coming?

I must agree with the point that you made, that we cannot assume that two clans of the same name have the same root. You have already shown two cases (one in Scotland and one in Ireland) of different roots for much the same names. Based on this I wonder if the McTyres (MacTyres) may not be of Clan Ross. Anyway, they and the Tyres, which one might otherwise place among our own Mhac an t'Saoirs, both display non-Ulster migration patterns, so it was no surprise that their respective folklores pointed elsewhere.

No, my reason for believing the McAteers and MacIntyres of Lorne to be related was (a) their geographical distribution, (b) their ties to the sea, and (c) a similarity of culture.

Now about Saint Ciaran - I believe the Aran Islands mentioned are in Galway Bay, and it was on the largest of these, "Inis Mor" that he studied under Saint Enda.

You have already made this point, but the people of the isles were under pressure from Norse settlers, and later Viking raiders, to move out of the isles, so their arrival from the isles does not mean they were Norse.

According to Mowat, the Vikings did note "vike" much, when they first began to venture onto the sea. They came as peaceful traders, then as semi-peaceful settlers, then as Viking raiders.

We run into the belief that all the ancient peoples of Scotland were Picts, and it is a bit like the idea that the Irish are the Celts. The Picts were a people from Western France who invaded much of the British Isles, and forced the Albans into the north of Scotland, and probably onto the isles of the Irish Sea. The Albans were related to the Basques, the Alpini of Italy, and the Kurds in the Near East. They may be the source of the brown eyes and black hair among the Scots, and possibly the origin of the "Black Irish."

Does anyone know when the Albans arrived, and who they displaced? Were the Albans also the so-called Celto-ligurians, or were they the much earlier mesolithic people? My point about the early mesolithic people remaining separate for a long time is supported by evidence of trade between the Danubian farmers and the hunter-gatherers they partially displaced. These people clung to their folk ways, and made a living supplying the farming folk with fish and furs, long after Ireland was mostly under the plow. They haunted the coasts, forests, and river banks, and lived in primitive shelters while their farmer neighbours lived in houses. It is quite possible that the people of the isles were of mesolithic stock.

Mowat describes the Albans as "tough, wiry, immensely enduring people of small to middle stature, with sharp features, black hair and eyes, and dark complexions. They are characterized by indomitable courage, fierce loyalties, and passionate allegiance to clan and country." Some of this sounds familiar.

Dug the following out of the same source, specially for John: "Originally the Lochlannach were Celtic sea raiders from Ireland's Loch Larne coast. . . . . . 'The Hebrides and Ulster were plundered by the Lochlann' as late as the year 798." There! Now we got John's number.

James point about Saint Ciaran's travels is a good one. But people did travel in those times, so it might simply be an error in chronology. Clearly, if he died seven months after founding Clonmacnoise, there was little time for travel.

Well, John's point about Saint Ciaran and a church at Loch Awe takes us full circle. Loch Awe is at the heart of MacIntyre country.

Thursday, Jan 20, 2000
John writes:

I'll have to go back to the library and get the exact reference which mentions St. Ciaran's Cave. But I can tell you it was not a scholarly work, but more of a Travel in Scotland type book (hence the references to roads and miles).

As far as I can tell from this material, it may even be a guess on the part of scholars that the references really are to St. Ciaran of Clonmacnoise. But all these references are there for a reason, i.e., the Church of St. Ciaran, the Cave of St. Ciaran, St. Ciaran's Loch and Landing, so my guess is there is some ancient mythology connected with all these places; perhaps actually commemorating a visit from a saint of the name. I wasn't able to uncover any mythology concerning St. Ciaran at any of these places in Scotland. There may well be some somewhere. If anyone has access to a book on Kintire or Argylle history or place-names, there may be some discussion of these issues in there.

The other material on St. Ciaran place names came from the Highland Papers, MacFarlane's Geographical Collections, and a book called the Celtic Shown 52%, press for more, 'q' to quit, or 'h' for help Place-Names of Scotland.

But whether or not this actually was the historical St. Ciaran of Clonmacnoise, it appears he was taken for that St. Ciaran in the literature of Scotland. It would be quite interesting to research this subject further - but it may have to be done in a library in Scotland with a lot of local history and mythology sources.

Normally, when a Celtic family venerates a saint - they attach either Giolla or Maoil to the saint's name: Mac Giolla Ciarain or Mac Maoil Ciarain, both signifying either a devotee or a follower of St. Ciarain. The Mac an t-Saoir usage (adopting this description of a saint as a last name) is somewhat unique as far as I know. There are Irish names such as Mac an Airchinnigh, or son of the herenagh, Mac an Easpug, or son of the bishop, Mac an Ulaigh, or son of Ulster, which are similar in form; but we don't normally see these as descriptive titles given to a handful of unrelated individuals (all Bishops or abbots) over the course of centuries.

We have no proof as yet that the Irish Mac an t-Saoirs were descended from the O Brolchains of Donegal - but it appears at least possible they were descended from the Maol Brighde mac An t-Saoir Uí Brolcháin of 1097 in the Annals. Both were and are Donegal septs - and in my opinion it's no coincidence that the surname is found in this county.

So I would imagine that the Scots may also have used the Mac an t-Saoir label in the same way found in Ireland - and that one of the McIntyre ancestors may have been so-called, resulting in the surname. But due to the total lack of records prior to the 1200's it's difficult to say anything for sure.

What finding these St. Ciaran references in Kintire did for me was prove the this saint (and his nickname or descriptive phrase, Mac an t-Saoir) was probably as well-known in Scotland as it was in Ireland. And being largely found in the same region (Kintire) as the surname makes it even more likely that MacIntyre in Scotland was derived from Mac an t-Saoir. In the Life of Colum Cille, the two saints meet at one point, and St. Ciarain is told to defer to Columcille because of his royal blood, whereas St. Ciarain was simply a son of a wright.

Could St. Ciarain have accompanied Columcille to Iona, or visited him there? Perhaps he founded a church in Kintire in the cave near Campbeltown in the process? I'll bet anything there are local legends in Kintire which explain these place-names if we could just find copies of them somewhere.

You're probably right about the Islands of Aran - the text I read didn't specify whether they were in Ireland or in Scotland. So I guessed the Arran Islands in Scotland were intended.

I'm sure the scrambled reference you found resembling Clonmacnoise is actually a reference to that monastery. Looks like a huge typo to me.

Here's a suggestion if anyone would like to pursue it. I feel this should be done by a MacIntyre, though, and not myself.

diarmid@eazy.net (Diarmid Campbell)

This gentlemen is the editor of the Clan Campbell magazine, and a relative of his is writing a new Campbell history. He has a lot of books on Argyle and Kintire, and is very knowledgeable about the history and mythology of the area. He and I corresponded for quite a while some months ago, and I recall his saying he had a book on the place-names of Argyle.

I mentioned the possibility of a Clan Ross (Paul MacTire) descent for the MacIntyres and he pooh-poohed the idea, and probably rightfully so.

Would one of you like to send him an email and ask if he knows anything about the St. Ciaran location names in Kintire? He may be able to steer you to some sources or authorities who might answer some of these questions for us.

Thursday, Jan 20, 2000
John writes:

Brian - have you ever read O'Rahilly's "Early Irish History and Mythology?" You'd love the book. He talks about the various waves of celtic tribes that settled Ireland from Gaul and Britain, and shows how their genuine invasion legends were altered by the Irish seanachies into the sons of Mil fiction of the Lebor Gabala Erren. He makes the point that the Cruithne or Picts were the original celtic inhabitants of both Scotland and northern Ireland; but that there were other Celtic tribes as well, such as the Lagin (in Leinster), the Erainn (celts from Britain) and other tribal groups, including the late-arriving Connachta or q-Celtic speaking celts, probably from Gaul.

But prior to all these waves of Celtic tribes there was an indigenous element which may be the same as your Albans. I think they are generally described as short and dark-haired, as you mention, whereas the latest arrivals in particular, are uniformly described as blonde-haired and blue-eyed in the mythologies of Ireland. At any rate it's a fascinating book and probably the closest we'll ever get to the true history of the Celtic tribes of Ireland and Scotland.

According to O'Rahilly (if memory serves) the Dal Riata in northern Ireland were the same race as the Cruithne or Picts of Scotland. So the legend of their going to Ireland and forming the kingdom of Dal Riata in Scotland and later merging with the kingdom of the Picts is misleading, to say the least. In a sense, they were just returning home to their own people, since the migration waves settled Scotland first and then crossed the sea to Ireland.. When all the Cruithne of Picts of Ireland had their pedigrees linked to the sons of Mil, the seanachies then refused to admit that there were any Picts in Ireland, and several old manuscripts say as much: "There are no Picts in Ireland."

This is pretty much the same thing the Irish seanachies did in Scotland. They linked all these various tribes together with a pedigree from the sons of Mil, in one line or another. And so the MacNeills of Barra and Gigha today swear they are descended from the O'Neills of Ulster. Ditto for the MacSweeneys, Maclachlans, MacEwens, Lamonts, et al. The MacDonalds claim a descent from Colla Uais, one of the three Collas, based on equally spurious pedigrees from the Irish seanachies.

These old pedigrees functioned as a sort of title deeds in an era when there were no land records or courthouses or even much of a central government. The important clans in each area all had their pedigrees artificially linked together in common descent from some imagined ancestor, usually but not always Irish. As far as actual history goes, they have to be taken with a very large grain of salt.

Friday, Jan 21, 2000
John writes:

That wouldn't bother me a bit. The more people chip in with ideas of their own, the more progress we'll make.

I found the source for the quotations on St. Ciaran's Well on Loch Awe: It was a travel book:

The Blue Guides Scotland L. Russell Muirhead M.A. (Cantab.)

There is also a mention of St. Ciaran's Cave in the "Archeology of Argyll," by Graham Rictchie, editor.

"St. Ciaran's Cave, on the foreshore of the south-east cost of Kintyre (RCAHMS 1971, 145-7, no. 298), contains a boulder carved with an elaborate marigold. Similar coastal caves, with numerous crosses which may testify to later pilgrimage to places of ascetic retreat, are found in the Ross of Mull at the Nun's Cave, Carsaig and at Scorr).

No much, admittedly; but at least it proves the editor of the tour guide didn't invent the cave.

Friday, Jan 21, 2000
John writes:

I thought I probably should post this history of Hugh MacDonald's again, since I'm not sure everyone received a copy last time. Plus I typed in the complete text which mentions Maurice MacNeill.

Two questions will probably arise from this material (if not more):

1. There are two Maurice MacNeills mentioned in the text. Are they the same man or two different Maurice MacNeills? Some authors think they are different men. I personally think they are referring to the same man.

The first reference (the story of the wright) simply makes him a foster-brother of Olay's and a near friend of Somerled's. The second makes him a son of Somerled's sister, and therefore his nephew. The second also states he was bribed by Malcolm IV to kill Somerled in return for lands he was promised by the king, which is probably why this text does not appear on any MacIntyre web sites.

2. Is Maurice MacNeill as surname? Or should we read Maurice the son of Neill in this phrase? I personally agree with Jim that it is probably intended as a surname, which is probably therefore linking the MacIntyres to the MacNeills of Barra and Gigha. (Although even further in the text, it states the MacNeills were brought from the Lennox to assist the MacDonalds).

3. The MacIntyres web sites state his name was Maurice MacNeill, or Macarill. Where did this reference come from? It's not in the Hugh MacDonald history. As I previously posted, I suspect Macarill is a corrupted form of Mac Torquill, Torquill being a common name amongst the MacNeills of Barra and the founder of one of their branches. The name is commonly anglicized as MacCorckle today, which is close in form to Macarill (MacCorquill, MacTorquill).

The History of the MacDonalds Hugh MacDonald (17th Cent.) The Highland Papers, Vol. 1 Scottish History Society J.R.N. MacPhail, K.C., editor

Somerled, the son of Gilbert, began to muse on the low condition and misfortune to which he and his father were reduced, and kept at first very retired. In the meantime, Allin MacVich Allin, coming with some forces to the land of Morverin for pillage and her ships, intending to retire forthwith to Lochaber, from whence he came. From this Allan descended the family of Lochiel. Somerled thought now it was high time to make himself known for the defense of his country, if he could, or at least see the same, having no company for the time. There was a young sprout out of a tree near the cave which grew in his age of infancy. He plucked it up by the root, and putting it on his shoulder, came near the people of Morverin, desired them to be of good courage and do as he did, and so by his persuasion, all of them having pulled a branch, and putting the same on their shoulder, went on encouraging each other.

Godfrey Du had possession of the Isles of the north side of Ardnamurchan from the King of Denmark. Olay compelled the inhabitants of some of these Isles to infest Morverin by landing some forces there. The principal surnames in the country were MacInnes's and MacGilvrays, who are the same as the MacInnes's. They being in sight of the enemy could act nothing without one to command them. At length they agreed to make the first person that should appear to them their general. Who came in the meantime but Somerled, with his bow, quiver, and sword?

Upon his appearance they raised a great shout of laughter. Somerled inquiring their reason, they answered they were rejoiced at his appearance. They told him that they had agreed to make the first that would appear their general. Somerled said he would undertake to head them, or serve as a man otherwise. But if they pitched upon him as their commander, they should swear to be obedient to his commands; so, without any delay, they gave him an oath of obedience.

There was a great hill betwixt them and the enemy, and Somerled ordered his men to put off their coats, and put their shirts and full armour above their coats. So, making them go three times in a disguised manner about the hill, that they might seem more in number than they really were, at last he ordered them to engage the Danes, saying that some of them were on shore and the rest in their ships; that those on shore would fight but faintly so near their ships.

Withal he exhorted his soldiers to be of good courage, and to do as they would see him do, so they led on the charge. The first whom Summerlid slew he ript up and took out his heart, desiring the rest to do the same, because that the Danes were no Christians. So the Danes were put to the flight; many of them were lost in the sea endeavouring to gain their ships; the lands of Mull and Morverin being freed at that time from their yoke and slavery.

After this defeat given to the Danes, Sommerlid thought to recover Argyle from those who, contrary to right, had possessed it, being wrung out of the hands of his father unjustly by MacBeath, Donald Bain, and the Danes. It is strange that some of our writers should, through malice or want of information, make him ignobly born, and yet call him Thane of Argyle, which title was not given him by the then present king, but they understood he had it by right from his predecessors. Some of the Argathelians made resistance, but were defeated. Macphadin, by joining with Sommerlid, was reconciled to him. In a short time he mastered Lorn, Argyle, Kintyre, and Knapdale; most of the inhabitants, knowing these lands were his by right, as formerly belonging to and possessed by his predecessors.

After this, Olay, surnamed the Red, King of Man, Isla, Mull and Isles southward of the point of Ardnamurchan, came with his fleet to Loch Stornua in order to subdue all the Isles south and north, pretending his right from the King of Denmark, to whom the ancient Danes north of Ardnamurchan refused allegiance; and, as Olay encamped at Loch Stornua, Somerled came to the other side of the loch, and cried out, if Olay was there, and how he fared? Olay replied, that he was well. Then said Somerled, I come from Somerled, Thane of Argyle, who promises to assist you conditionally in your expedition, provided you bestow your daughter on him. Olay answered, that he would not give him his daughter, and that he knew that he himself was the man; but that he and his men should follow him in his expedition.

So Somerled resolved to follow Olay. There was at that time a foster brother of Olay's, one Maurice MacNeill, in Olay's company, who was a near friend of Somerled; and when Somerled brought his two galleys near the place where Olay's ship lay, this Maurice aforesaid came where he was, and said that he would find means by which he might come to get Olay's daughter. So, in the night time, he bored Olay's ship under water with many hoes, and made a pin for each hole, overlaying them with tallow and butter.

When they were up in the morning and set to sea, after passing the point of Ardnamurchan, Olay's ship sprung a leak, casting the tallow and butter out of the holes by the ship tossing on the waves, and beginning to sink, Olay and his men cried for help to Somerled. Maurice replied, that Somerled would not save him unless he bestowed his daughter upon him. At last, Olay being in danger of his life, confirmed by an oath that he would give his daughter to Somerled, who received him immediately into his galley. Maurice went into Olay's galley, and fixed the pins in the holes, which he had formerly prepared for them, and by these means they landed in safety. From that time the posterity of Maurice are called MacIntyres (or wright's sons) to this day.

On this expedition Olay and Somerled killed MacLier, who possessed Strath within the Isle Sky. They killed Godfrey Du, or the Black, by putting out his eyes, which was done by the hermit MacPoke, because Godrey Du had killed his father formerly. Olay, surnamed the Red, killed MacNicoll in North Uist likewise. Now Somerled marrying Olay's daughter, and becoming great after Olay's death, which death, with the relation and circumstances thereof, if you be curious to know, you may get a long account of it in Camden.

Now, Somerled being envied by the rest of the nobility of Scotland for his fortune and valour, King Malcolm being young, thought by all means his kingdom would suffer by the faction, ambition, and envy of his leading men, if Somerled's increasing power would not be crushed. Therefore, they convened and sent an army to Argyle under the command of Gilchrist, Thane of Angus, who, harassing and ravaging the country wherever he came, desired Somerled to give up his right of Argyle or abandon the Isles. But Somerled, making all the speed he could in raising his vassals and followers, went after them; and joining battle, they fought fiercely on both sides with great slaughter, till night parted them. Two thousand on Somerled's side, and seven thousand on Gilchrist's side, were slain in the field.

Being wearied, they parted and marched off at the dawn of day, turning their backs to one another. After this, when the king came to manhood, the nobles were still in his ears, desiring him to suppress the pride of Somerled, hoping, if he should be crushed, they should or might get his estate to be divided among themselves, and at least get him expelled the country. Somerled being informed hereof, resolved to lose all, or possess all, he had in the Highlands; therefore, gathering together all his forces from the Isles and Continent, and shipping them for Clyde, he landed in Greenock.

The king came with his army to Glasgow in order to give battle to Somerled, who marched up the south side of the Clyde, leaving his galleys at Greenock. The king's party quartered at Renfew, Those about him thought proper to send a message to Somerled, the contents of which were, that the king would not molest Somerled for the Isles, which were properly his wife's right; but, as for the lands of Argyle and Kintyre, he would have them restored to himself.

Somerled replied, that he had as good a right to the lands upon the continent as he had to the Isles; yet these lands were unjustly possessed by the King MacBeath and Donald Bain, and that he thought that it did not become his majesty to hinder him from the recovery of his own rights, of which his predecessors were deprived by MacBeath, out of revenge for standing in opposition to him after the murder of king Duncan. As to the Isles, he had an undoubted right to them, his predecessors being possessed of them by the good will and consent of Eugenius the First, for obligations conferred upon him: That, when his forefathers were dispossessed of them by the invasion of the Danes, they had no assistance to defend or recover them from the Scottish king, and that he had his right of them from the Danes; but, however, he would be assisting to the king in any other affairs, and would prove as loyal as any of his nearest friends, but, as long as he breathed, he would not condescend to resign any of his rights which he possessed to any; that he was resolved to lose all or keep all, and that he thought himself as worthy of his own as any about the king's court.

The messenger returned with this answer to the king, whose party was not altogether bent upon joining battle with Somerled, neither did the king look much after his ruin, but, as the most of kings are commonly led by their councillors, the king himself being young, they contrived Somerled's death in another manner. There was a nephew of Somerled's, Maurice MacNeill, his sister's son, who was bribed to destroy him. Somerled lay encampted at the confluence of the river Pasley into Clyde. His nephew taking a little boat, went over the river and having got private audience of him, being suspected by none, stabbed him, and made his escape.

The rest of Somerled's men hearing the death and tragedy of their leader and master, betook themselves to their galleys. The king coming to view the corpse, one of his followers, with his foot, did hit it. Maurice being present said that though he had done the first thing most villainously and against his conscience, that he was unworthy and base so to do; and withal drew his long scian, stabbed him, and escaped by swimming over to the other side of the river, receiving his remission from the king thereafter, with the lands which were formerly promised him. The king sent a boat with the corpse of Somerled to Icollumkill at his own charges. This is the report of twenty writers in Icollumkill, before Hector Boetius and Buchanan were born.

Uaine,
Web-leprechaun.

Homepage; top of page.